Rejoice Yon Taxpayer

[MorGrendel]

Rejoice and celebrate your government did not rape you while it had you bent over the barrel. The house said no to the bail out. Thank you "hold outs" for having the clarity of mind not to be swayed.

“You can’t break their arms, you can’t put your whole relationship on the line with them and ask them to do something they do not want to do and have that member regret that vote for the rest of their life,” said Mr. Boehner, who said he could not remember a time when the muscle of both parties and the White House failed to produce a victory.

Representative John A. Boehner of Ohio, the House Republican leader, said he tried repeatedly and unsuccessfully to sway a handful of holdouts, but eventually gave up.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/30/busin ... =1&_r=1&em

Sorry I have been so quiet as of late, but I honestly could not speak about this without getting spitting mad.

Here is a pretty map. (I make no allusions to a point, other than if I am reading it right only one person did not vote)

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008 ... APHIC.html

[ahrimen]

that is a very informative map! thats awsom so glad to see it that some of both parties wont back down.
like lewis black said "nothing is worse than when republicans and demicrats work together, i have a really bad idea!
and I can make it shittier!"

[Fritz]

So out of curiosity, how exactly is the credit market supposed to get fixed without the bail out? Yes Jeff, this is a license to rant. Oh and I will kill you for every time I read the phrase "the market will work it out."

[MorGrendel]

So there I was at Wachovia, looking to get a home loan. At this point the Loan Officer is a bit annoyed because I keep asking him to make the numbers work. He appeals to Missy, good luck bub. He gets on the cell phone a few times. Despite my pleas he cotinues to pitch a loan that is 50,000 more than I see as feasible. I point to how much I make, I point to how much Missy makes. He talks about future raises. I talk about what happens if I lose my job. He offeres me mortgage insurance if I take the hirer loan that I already can't afford. He leaves. He returns with the Loan Originator. He gives the same spiel. They invite me and my realtor into the hall, then the Originator returns to the room to ask Missy a question. Realizing I do not like being split up, and that these guys are sneaky and fixated on a price point I grab Missy and our realtor and leave.

These people are crooks who have purposely decieved and robbed the country. The fleeced those that were too ignorant to ask the right questions. A mark is born every minute, and they could have gotten away with it if not for their insatiable greed.

[MorGrendel]

Since I have not seen any other plan than to throw money at the problem,

“It’s not based on any particular data point,” a Treasury spokeswoman told Forbes.com Tuesday. “We just wanted to choose a really large number.”

I guess I will have to make up my own.

Section 1
Raise the interest rate to 15%.
This will freeze home buying, but stabilze the price of homes.

Section 2
Lift the Dividend tax on stock so that they will trade more rapidly.
Allow private investors to invest capital into the failing companies. Have them create a trust so that the company reaches liquidity and there is no "fire sale". Require the trust to be at a return rate of 11.5%. Require the company to sell assets until they reach liquidity and pay back investors.
Reduce the capital gains tax to 5% to increase value of sold assets.

Section 3
People do not want to default, and the banks do not want the homes as the best possible return they can get is 80%. That is a a minimum of a 20% loss. A business needs a minimum of a 10% profit (30% difference from a default)to keep there stock price even and to remain solvent. Banks do not care how big your loan is, they just sell it and add it to a bunch of others and call it a security. All the bank needs to know is that you are paying enough interest to make them their 10%.
Require banks to renegotiate loans. Allow homeowners to set the payment to around than 65% of their income. Raise the rate of interest to 11.5%(so the banks can make money). Extend the loan amoritation to facilitate a completion of the loan.
Outlaw loan origination and underwriter fees.
Allow homeowners to "move" their loan to another bank. Create a form that they can submit that declares this intention, protects the home owner from eviction or collection, and is protected and inforced by the police if necessary. Homeowners are not required to pay morgage while "shopping" loans, however, they have 3 months to move the loan, and the new bank must pay the old bank a fee of 15% for each payment deliquent.

Section 4
Save money instead, pay down the national debt.
End the war in Iraq, save 2 billion a week (according to new estimates).
Bring our troops home from around the world, save billions.
Cut defense spending or require open records (The Public Information Act).

That's just off the top of my head. Got to run to a meeting but I will post more.

[ahrimen]

more over whatever happened to personal responsability? theresa and i where offed loans way out of our price range and we did not take them just becawse some one will loan you $300,000 does not mean you should take it, also i do not belive banks want to forclose on people it a huge expence in up keep to maintain a house for a bank, but CONGRESS said you have to give loans to people who cant afford them or you are racist! soooooooo! here we are. every one from banks to congress to the morons who took huge loans are all responsible, people like jeff chris and i who put in long hours work hard and ...wait......wait .....PAY OUR GODDAMN BILLS! should not have to incure the debt of a bunch of idiots and lazy asses. if they want to do anything with the 700 billion then diviy it up to the people who actualy have been paying thier mortgages all this time to reward us for NOT being stupid greedy or lazy.


never happen i know.

[hypo]

if it only worked that way. I could use it too.

[Berserker]

This issue is quite complex. One issue is the people expectation. What i mean is that you don't want the people to lose faith in the current finacial system. If they do, then they will withdraw their money from bank and put it under their pillow (eg. great depression). So the govt is trying to come up with plans to keep the investor's faith in the system. There is also the fear that if one bank colapses, then it will cause a domino effect and the rest of the banks will also colapes (again, just what happened in the great depression). This is very much tied in to the faith of the people in the system. Third, is the credit cashflow drying up. As an example, imagine going to Giant and trying to pay for your groceries with your credit card and the card being rejected, not because you don't have credit, but because the credit card company doesn't have the cash to pay for it. Busineses run on credit. They all borrow money to aquire the resources needed to create the product that they sell. The fear is that if the cashflow stops, then businesses throught US will not be able to do bussiness which will hurt everyone.

I'm just saying that this is not an easy issue to solve. Perhaps if the market is left on its own that is the best course, or perhaps if nothing is done the hard working person who did no bad will still end up on the streets and our economy will collapse.

A question I would have is, if they do pass the 700 billion bill, what program will they cut because this money has to come from somewhere? Notice that neither candidate said anythign concrete when asked that question.

As a side note, jeff, it's interesting that one of your choices was to raise interest rate to 15%. That is definately one way to bring money back into the country (and raise the worth of the dollar). Currently we are importing more then we are exporting which means more US dollars are going out of the country then coming back into the country (this is one reason why our dollar is falling). One way to bring more money in is to raise interest rates. But even this is not a simple choice, since if we raise interest rates, we raise the interest rate on our own loans too (so our debt raises faster). One of those doomed if we do, doomed if we don't kind of scenarios.

anyway, i'm rambling. Btw, if you have any specific good questions that you really want answered, I do have an econ teacher that might be willing to answer them. Let me know.

[MorGrendel]

Printing $700 billion out of thin air does not increase my faith in the credit market. I believe it undermines mine and the people's confidence and trust in the government as a whole. I think it is telling that congress took a holiday and the market went up. It is sad to think that sticking my money in a mattress feels reassuring and gives me warm fuzzies. Right now I feel like my money is stuffed in a chicken tripping acid running down the freeway at rush hour with a grenade strapped to it famine-colored back.

History will remember Bush as our greatest president of all time. Only he was able to get every man, woman, and child to give up their time, their happiness, thier homes their liberty, and every last stinking cent (what a penny really is Andrew) to the all mighty government.

FU Senate!

[ahrimen]

i find it perplexing how this is blamed on bush, he is to blame for not standing up and stoping this in 2004 (as the video i posted shows) when the dems in congress attacked the oversight that noticed the problem and not the problem. an executive order could have atleast forstalled all this till the next presedency at the least. no one however would want to be the president who denied minorites housing, (though thats not what would happen its what dems painted it as, again video) so fear of political correctness won over common sense again.

[Belovesus]

an executive order could have atleast forstalled all this till the next presedency at the least.

but that just causes MORE problems... ex.- the civil war could have been stopped if the president had intervened... but since it was the end of his last term, Buchanan decided he'd let the next president take care of it--BAD IDEA!!!

[ahrimen]

that is why i said LEAST! LEAST would be better than nothing, and we got nothing. the Right thing to do would have been to lead a charge in congress (at the time was rep. controlled) and put a permenent stop to lending people with out means to pay back 200k i dunno mebe its me.