Thar be High Elves!

[Fritz]

That's quite a write up. You must be a coffee drinker.

Personally, I would try as much new stuff as possible, and if you are going to call it a "shooty" list, then everything should shoot. Swap the Frost for a Flame Phoenix, and swap the Lions for Seagaurd. I can't see that change being drastically weaker than the other list, but would allow you to try out two new units and reinforce the shooting. Make your opponent come to you and survive a hail of fire. I'd tell you to drop the Phoenix gaurd, but with there ability to have a 3+ Ward, I think you'd sooner cut your fingers off. That's disgusting by the way, and may be the most broken thing GW has ever done. I hope the erreta takes away stacking, or they meant Magic Resistance.

I had actually had been writing it the whole week as the rumors and confirmations were spilling out. I just wanted to confirm everything with a book in hand before publishing. If you think the Phoenix Guard are broken, you should have a look at what Chaos can throw down lately. Their Lord choices can get a 3+ ward save which re-rolls failed rolls of 1. For some reason GW has no problem with 3+ ward saves. They're still 15 point T3 models that only strike at S4 when it comes right down to it. I'm sorry, but the Ogre Gutstar is far far meaner. It's powerful for sure, but it means risking your mage in a combat unit. There's a big debate raging over on Ulthuan of how to get the most out of that lore attribute because they hate how much it puts their mages at risk.

If you want to talk about something that is broken, have another look at the Banner of the World Dragon. The more I look at it the more disguising it seems for it's price. It really should have been at least 5 points more, restricting it to the BSB or the Dragon Princes (who for some reason can take a 75 point banner). That thing is already being banned by tournaments before it's even hit the table. I'm going to try it a couple times, but I may end up ignoring it like it did with the Book of Hoeth.

Finally, shooty is a relative term for me. The shooty list is just shootier than the other list. I hate being a one trick pony, which is exactly what going all shooting is. I also find that it makes for an extremely boring game. Armies that do nothing but shoot either win by turn 2 or they die horribly in turn 3. I've been going back and forth on the Flamespyre for the shooty list and I think you're right. It definitely fits. I just really like the Frostheart too. I would actually sooner drop the Phoenix Guard than the White Lions. My army is themed around Chrace, so I view at least 1 unit of actual White Lions as mandatory, even if the Phoenix Guard are probably the more optimal choice in a shooting list.

[MorGrendel]

I regards to Chaos, its one model, not a unit. I can still murder his unit and he runs away with them. I've seen the rise in Ward Saves, and I don't like it. Dudes need to die to make Warhammer fun.

The Gutstar seems to fall into holes when it sees rats. I still don't think anything was as bad as the Tyrant on a carpet. Also not a fan of the Mangler Squigs.

Feel free to try out the banner on Jason, I'm not interested :)

I had a thought, Lizards and High Elves are really the Anti-Chaos armies, and more to my thought, I think they racheted up the HE offense. I was thinking it be cool (and unique) if they upped the Lizardman Defense. Like Kroxigors that can take armor and shields. Wards for Temple Gaurd. Slann that can not be harmed at range. Also I hope they change the slann so he is in the 3rd rank. I hate that I lose out on the attacks. And where is our big flying lizard AKA dragon! Heard any good rumors?

[Fritz]

I regards to Chaos, its one model, not a unit. I can still murder his unit and he runs away with them. I've seen the rise in Ward Saves, and I don't like it. Dudes need to die to make Warhammer fun.

The Gutstar seems to fall into holes when it sees rats. I still don't think anything was as bad as the Tyrant on a carpet. Also not a fan of the Mangler Squigs.

Feel free to try out the banner on Jason, I'm not interested :)

I had a thought, Lizards and High Elves are really the Anti-Chaos armies, and more to my thought, I think they racheted up the HE offense. I was thinking it be cool (and unique) if they upped the Lizardman Defense. Like Kroxigors that can take armor and shields. Wards for Temple Gaurd. Slann that can not be harmed at range. Also I hope they change the slann so he is in the 3rd rank. I hate that I lose out on the attacks. And where is our big flying lizard AKA dragon! Heard any good rumors?

The Chaos guy is one model that is stubborn and flying on a disc of Tzeentch. That's right, he can get that 3+ re-rolling ward save and still have points for the crown of command. What he does is find your biggest, priciest unit, and plop himself in front of them for the whole game. He also has a good chance of healing himself with his attacks. However, just like the Phoenix Guard I really don't have a problem with it. You pay significant points to not die. You're not going to kill much of anything. You're just going to be a giant pain in the ass. Jason has dealt with the Phoenix Guard pretty well. He got a great flank charge off on them and they folded like a wet paper bag. Admittedly, that was in the old book, so we'll have to wait and see what happens when we get time to play a game. I don't actually think I'll have time until Memorial Day weekend since I have family coming down this weekend and I'm coming up for the Warrior Dash the following weekend.

As far as racheting up HE offense, I'm not sure what you're talking about exactly. It depends on when you are referring to. Are you talking about the last book or this book? The last book did indeed make High Elf offense much more powerful. This book, however, actually decreased HE offense a bit with the changes to ASF. They've gone back to being a bit more defensive, as they're supposed to be in comparison to the other Elves. Dark Elves are supposed to be the offensive ones. Wood Elves are supposed to be the mobile ones. I think shooting lists are going to be much more common now that bolt throwers are reasonably priced.

I can see wards possibly happening for Temple Guard, but that's about it. You probably won't get a flying monster, but there are definitely whispers of more giant dinosaurs for you. I won't expect to get much help for the Slann. They're probably going to be hit with the nerf bat like Teclis and the Book of Hoeth. They're one of the last really abusive things left in the magic phase (Dark Elf magic being the absolute worst). However, I don't think you tend to use the things that make them so broken, so I doubt you'll see the difference. The lost attacks from your Slann in the second rank are the price you pay for protection. You can't be hit back there. Every other mage has to sit in the front rank and risk getting hit in close combat.

[MorGrendel]

The lost attacks from your Slann in the second rank are the price you pay for protection. You can't be hit back there. Every other mage has to sit in the front rank and risk getting hit in close combat.

Yeah, I really need clarification on that. I feel that if a model can hit an opponent, that opponent can hit them back; however the BRB does not say this. Moreover, I believe we play you can always hit RnF, but I'm not sure the rules support that either. I know it seems hokey when the Ogres use charecters to screen RnF, but I can see it being done fairly easily with LM as well. (Actually, now I'm wondering about 2 superdefensive bone breakers and 2 assassins, no wait that sounds like cheese...). Anyway, the point of the formation is to protect the slann, so I guess the slann can't be hit, even if he can attack back. That sounds wrong to me, but I guess in the case of the slann, since he has a special rule that bends the rules it is alright. However, this now leaves me perplexed about Ogrestar and other situations.

So show of hands, if the front rank all characters, are you only in B2B with characters, and hence, that is all you can attack?

[Fritz]

The lost attacks from your Slann in the second rank are the price you pay for protection. You can't be hit back there. Every other mage has to sit in the front rank and risk getting hit in close combat.

Yeah, I really need clarification on that. I feel that if a model can hit an opponent, that opponent can hit them back; however the BRB does not say this. Moreover, I believe we play you can always hit RnF, but I'm not sure the rules support that either. I know it seems hokey when the Ogres use charecters to screen RnF, but I can see it being done fairly easily with LM as well. (Actually, now I'm wondering about 2 superdefensive bone breakers and 2 assassins, no wait that sounds like cheese...). Anyway, the point of the formation is to protect the slann, so I guess the slann can't be hit, even if he can attack back. That sounds wrong to me, but I guess in the case of the slann, since he has a special rule that bends the rules it is alright. However, this now leaves me perplexed about Ogrestar and other situations.

So show of hands, if the front rank all characters, are you only in B2B with characters, and hence, that is all you can attack?

It explicitly says so in the rules. If you are in base to base with only characters, then characters you must attack.

[MorGrendel]

It explicitly says so in the rules. If you are in base to base with only characters, then characters you must attack.

Right, like I said, some of us have played around that rule, and I was looking to see that we were still the majority. I get it's the rule, been that way for a while. I minded it less when only the front rank fought, but now with supporting, horde, and martial prowess attacks fighting "through" the B2B model, I find it odd that 4 ranks of High Elf spearmen can attack me, and I can't hit any of them back.

I know I'm wrong, but just seems silly to me.

[Berserker]

I agree with Jeff. Even when I make units where the front rank is all characters, I still allow Jeff to hit the regular ogres because it seems weird that they couldn't be hit when they are hitting you (admitedly weakening my ogres by doing that).

But I don't think this will be much of an issue with most armies since 5 dudes per rank is standard and that means you need 5 characters, which most armies won't field (at least not in one unit). It's really more for my army since I can have 3 guys as a rank and since Jeff plays me a lot.

Of course, depending how badass your 3+ ward, 3 ranks of attacks (or 4+ in some cases), always strike first, re-rolling attacks elves are, I might just waive that rule ;)

[Berserker]

Oh Fritz, I was reading your review of your new book (Great review btw!).

On the Frostheart Phoenix, you mentioned that it gave ASL (and -1 str) to any "unit" in contact. Are you sure it affects the entire unit, and not soldiers within a radius bubble? If it is, I feel sooooo jipped!!! I too have a monster (at 250pts) that gives ASL but only to enemy models that are within 6 inches of him (not entire units). And of course, I don't get the -1 str bonus. You lucky dog! ;)

[Fritz]

Oh Fritz, I was reading your review of your new book (Great review btw!).

On the Frostheart Phoenix, you mentioned that it gave ASL (and -1 str) to any "unit" in contact. Are you sure it affects the entire unit, and not soldiers within a radius bubble? If it is, I feel sooooo jipped!!! I too have a monster (at 250pts) that gives ASL but only to enemy models that are within 6 inches of him (not entire units). And of course, I don't get the -1 str bonus. You lucky dog! ;)

It's any unit in contact. I suppose the advantage for you is the possibility of getting that bonus in multiple combats. That said, the Frostheart aura is so much cleaner. ASL is nice, but I agree that the -1S is the real killer. It synergies so well with the rest of the army.

I hope that review gives you guys a good idea of what to expect. The army books are really expensive now a days, so it's hard to expect everyone to pick up every book. I hate coming at someone that has no idea what to expect from my army. I just feel like I'm cheating if you have no idea what my units are capable of. My goal with that review is to bridge some of that gap. If you have more questions for me I'm happy to answer them.

[MorGrendel]

My goal with that review is to bring some of that gap. If you have more questions for me I'm happy to answer them.

We appreciate it, even if we ridicule the Elves. You've inspired me, I'm searching the interwebs for the upcoming Lizardman book rumors.

[Berserker]

It's any unit in contact. I suppose the advantage for you is the possibility of getting that bonus in multiple combats. That said, the Frostheart aura is so much cleaner. ASL is nice, but I agree that the -1S is the real killer. It synergies so well with the rest of the army.

Yeah, I think they came up with the idea when they made my book, but simplified it and made it better for your book. I would at any time give up my 6" bubble for a unit-wide ASL (and man the -1str is awesome! Why doesn't my frost-weathered ice sphere make you less strong? Afterall, my thundertusk actually hurls ice balls of death from his mouth! His heart is truly that cold! ;)

In all reality, however, my version of the rule I think makes more real life sense. Why would a frost-aura of some sort affect people 10 ranks deep when it only reaches 2 ranks in. But alas, it's a game =)

[Fritz]

By the way, I'm driving up for the warrior dash this morning, I'll be in town around 3-4 this afternoon. I'm bringing my army if anyone wants to try and sneak in a game.