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GW seems to be cranking the Army Books out at a pretty steady rate. Looks like Empire is coming our way in April: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/03/ ... atest.html

I'm curious to see what they do with the army. While not overtly powerful, Empire is considered to have some of the cheesier builds in the game, much like Vampires. Steam Tanks, War Altar, and mortars are all particularly nasty. Empire is also one of only two armies capable of generating large amount of extra dispel dice. They appear to be going back and re-doing books based on how compatible an army is with their vision of 8th edition. I expect warrior priests generating dispel dice to go the way of the dodo, mortars to get an uptick in cost, and the War Altar and Steam Tank to get toned down. I think it will be especially interesting to see what, if anything, they do with the detachment system. Rumor has it the Teutogen Guard and the Priests of Ulric will be making a comeback, so I can see that being a fun and interesting theme. I miss my Sigmar army, but I don't feel the need to make you all look at different variations of Flagellants again.

Unless the release of 6th 40k edition throws everything off, the current rate appears to be a pretty steady once every three months. Considering we went a year without one after the release of 8th edition, I dare say that's a pretty good rate. I can't help but wonder what will be next after Empire. The prevailing theory seems to be Dwarfs. At the current rate, that would be around July. Considering it is the oldest book out there, I dare say the stunnies deserve it, even if other books need it more (Wood Elves). The things to watch are if the Dwarfs get to play in the magic phase and if they get to keep their iconic rune system. Both are at odds with the current 8th edition trends (streamlined magic phase, limited magic items in the Army Books). I'm kinda itching for a new High Elf book, but I don't think I'll be seeing one in 2012.

I think the wood elves do need it more. Seeing as the comPletely changed how the wood and terrain work and that was there one main advantage.
But I think the brettonians need it almost as much. Being one if not the oldest book right now.

Titus wrote:I think the wood elves do need it more. Seeing as the comPletely changed how the wood and terrain work and that was there one main advantage.
But I think the brettonians need it almost as much. Being one if not the oldest book right now.

Yup, I just checked the publication dates. Bretonnia is the oldest book out there (published 2004). Wood Elves are second and Dwarfs are third. Bretonnians are in a better place than Wood Elves by a long ways. In some ways they're even better off than High Elves. Bretonnian cavalry survived this edition much better than most cavalry thanks to lance formation. They also have great cheap archers, the fantastic Trebuchet, and easy access to Heroic Killing Blow. As such, they're pretty decent at dealing with one of the increasing trends in 8th edition: shitloads of monsters and monstrous infantry. They can pincushion the snot out of things, they can negate Stomp with their primary fighting units, and they can tool up a hero to one shot monsters. If High Elves face more than one monster they're pretty much screwed, barring amazing generalship and/or luck. Not that High Elves are bad. Not by a long shot. What Bretonnians and High Elves are is serviceable. They don't have many overpowering things, and a lot of fairly useless or overpriced things, but they can get by.

Wood Elf archery is good, but that's about it. The only stand up and fight rank and file unit they have is Eternal Guard. Eternal Guard were crap when that book came out. Now they're just downright terrible. Wood Elves suffer from a similar problem as High Elves, but more exaggerated. They are an army designed around wiping out that first rank in a combat and not getting hit back. High Elves at least have ranks and great magic options that can help mitigate that problem. Wood Elves are just screwed. Step up, even more than steadfast or terrain rules, has made life suck for Wood Elves.

That said, Bretonnians are closing in on 8 years old. Mainly I would like to see the army get some more options. Ditch the 0-1 on Pegasus Knights. Hell, drop the skirmish and turn them into straight up flying monstrous cavalry. That way 6 of them can smash into a flank, take away rank bonus, and cause some major damage. There has been nothing solid on Bretonnians, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Wood Elf rumors indicate that GW is still conceptualizing and isn't sure where to go with them. Rumor has it they won't even be released in 2013. We're talking 2014+. Both High Elves AND Dark Elves are supposed to get redone before them. That sucks.

Actually while we're at it, let's take a look at who is left to redo for 8th edition. We'll leave Empire out of the discussion and assume they're in for April. That leaves the following:

Beastmen (February 2010)
Skaven (November 2009)
Lizardmen (February 2009)
Warriors of Chaos (November 2008)
Dark Elves (August 2008)
Daemons of Chaos (May 2008)
High Elves (November 2007)
Dwarfs (December 2005)
Wood Elves (2005)
Bretonnia (2004)

Beastmen were redone right before 8th edtion and the authors explicitly said they had 8th edition in mind when they wrote it, so you might as well consider that an 8th edition book. Skaven and Dark Elves are sitting pretty right now, being largely considered the most overpowered armies in the game. You actually should all thank Jeff for being as nice as he is with his lists. There is some pretty ugly stuff out there. Warriors of Chaos just a cut just below Skaven and Dark Elves. Lizardmen are sitting right in the strike zone for 8th edition in my opinion. They have solid magic and infantry, cool monsters, and good support units (holy crap do Kroxigors suddenly rock). This is how I would order the remainder based on need and age of the book:

Wood Elves
Bretonnia
Dwarfs
High Elves
Daemons

Rumors have it that Wood Elves are fucked, that the Dwarfs are next up after Empire, and that Dark Elves are scheduled for Decemberish 2013. I'll just assume that's all true. Assuming a once every three months release schedule, this is how I would go if I were GW:

July 2012: Dwarfs
October 2012: Bretonnia
January 2013: High Elves
April 2013: Daemons
July 2013: Warriors of Chaos
October 2013: Skaven
January 2014: Dark Elves

GW appears to mainly be fixing things that are glaringly against 8th edition trends or are ridiculously old. Vampires could greatly imbalance the magic phase with certain bloodline power and had some way overpriced units (skeletons, zombies). Tomb Kings were old and had a funky magic system. Ogres were old as sin. Empire mortars are way too cheap for what they do and warrior priests generate dispel dice. Dwarf runesmiths generate dispel dice and don't get to play in the magic phase at all (I seriously expect that to change. Look at Storm of Magic) Once Dwarfs are out of the way, what we have left are the "overpowered" (I don't think they're all that bad) and the serviceable books. Everything more or less fits into the 8th edition fold at this point.

As for what they'll change, I'm not sure what they'll do with Bretonnia. Men-at-Arms will probably see a slight point decrease (4 points per model would be good I think). The unit size caps on Knight units will go away, making lances even more awesome and the 0-1 on Pegasus Knight will die a horrible death. I don't think we'll see much of a change to lance rules in general. They're pretty solid. I think we'll definitely see a new monstrous cavalry unit, although what form it will take is beyond me. Beyond that though, I have no idea.

High Elves, however, are pretty clear to me. Book of Hoeth dies.Tyrion becomes awesome again. Teclis remains bad ass. Imrik makes a return to the book. Hell, maybe we'll even see the Phoenix King actually get some rules. There will be a very slight point decrease across the army (especially on characters). Lore of High Magic gets nastier, but Drain Magic gets a fundamental overhaul, probably becoming a lore attribute in some way. High Magic will likely be required on one Mage ala Ogres. Special Rules will be everywhere. Maybe Swordmasters will be at -1 to hit because they're fucking ninjas cutting arrows out of the sky. Maybe Shadow Warriors get armor piercing. Maybe Ellyrion Reavers get hit and run. I obvious don't know exactly what the rules will be, but I'm confident there will be a million of them. Finally, there will be Dragons. Lots of Dragons. If I am I right about only one thing this will be it.

Those of you familiar with High Elves know that the current storyline has most of the Dragons in hibernation. So how do they get around that little problem? Well, GW has finally started to advance the storyline again. They did it in the new Vampire Counts book to a slight degree. They did it in a major way in Defenders of Ulthuan and Sons of Ellyrion, both of which were published in September and both of which I just finished reading. None of you are likely to read those two books, so I'll go ahead and spoil the ending. You know that magic vortex at the center of Ulthuan? Morathi manages to collapse it, releasing a wave of magic upon the world. The mage that originally made the Vortex and was trapped inside then reappears, pimp slaps Morathi and then re-establishes the Vortex. That wave of magic, however, wakes up the Dragons. They eat lots of very crispy Dark Elves.

Yes, you will be dealing with as many Dragons as I can possibly field once that book is out. Dragons are awesome. Deal with it.

Since I don't get dragons, I want Skyre Harmful Ingenuity Tools (AKA - SHIT, sure to blow up).

Cart (General Chariot stats)- 50 points

Extras:
8 (or more) wheeled - Ingore dangerous terrain - 20
Hydrogen Filled - Flying - 40 If hit with a Str 5 or greater weapon see Possible Disaster Chart.
Warstone Powered - Move 3d6 compulsory - All weapons have +2 Strength + 45

Weapons: (Each weapon may only be taken once)
Poisoned caltraps - Enemies attacking from rear take a Dangerous terrain test and fail on 1 and 2 - 20
Flail Arms - d6 attacks at Str 5 - 20
Buzz saw arms - d6 attacks str 4, armor peircing - 20
Spinning Rusty blades - d6 attacks, poison - 20
Warpstone Hammer - Small template, one strength 8 in center, all others Str 4 - 50

WL Cannon - 80
Turret mounted WLC - 100

Add a Weapons team:
Warp fire thrower, etc - See book -

MorGrendel wrote:Since I don't get dragons, I want Skyre Harmful Ingenuity Tools (AKA - SHIT, sure to blow up).

Cart (General Chariot stats)- 50 points

Extras:
8 (or more) wheeled - Ingore dangerous terrain - 20
Hydrogen Filled - Flying - 40 If hit with a Str 5 or greater weapon see Possible Disaster Chart.
Warstone Powered - Move 3d6 compulsory - All weapons have +2 Strength + 45

Weapons: (Each weapon may only be taken once)
Poisoned caltraps - Enemies attacking from rear take a Dangerous terrain test and fail on 1 and 2 - 20
Flail Arms - d6 attacks at Str 5 - 20
Buzz saw arms - d6 attacks str 4, armor peircing - 20
Spinning Rusty blades - d6 attacks, poison - 20
Warpstone Hammer - Small template, one strength 8 in center, all others Str 4 - 50

WL Cannon - 80
Turret mounted WLC - 100

Add a Weapons team:
Warp fire thrower, etc - See book -

You already have stuff better than most of that. You really need to remember Jezzails when faced with lots of monsters. 20 points for a S6 shot. That's mean.

Jezzails vs Dragon.

Are we really having this converstion? Let's take your Terrorgheist:
A Jezzail under the BEST circumstances will hit it HALF of the time. This means it will take 5 jezzails (100 points) three turns of shooting to hit enough times (7.5) to possibly kill it. Of course, then you have to account for the T6, so only half of those will Wound (3.75) and then the 4+ Regeration slices off another half (1.87) equating to a total of 1 or 2 wounds. Assumming, you are entirely innept, and leave your Terrorghiest in the open for three turns, I can make the 6 wounds necessary (5.6, so I need a little luck) if I triple the number of jezzails (15) for 300 points (75 more than you spent). Of course, you won't just sit there and let me shoot you. If the Terrorgheist is really hungry he will fly over and munch them first turn; but why get shot and possibly end up out of position to a really juicy target like that the side of some plague monks, so instead he'll fly to within 8" and Death Shreik. They will all die or run away.

Death Shreik is to Skaven what WLC is to Elves.

Dragons and their ilk are awesome, hence why everyone wants one! Also, I think it is BS that the guys with sniper rifles can't snipe, but I digress.

MorGrendel wrote:Jezzails vs Dragon.

Are we really having this converstion? Let's take your Terrorgheist:
A Jezzail under the BEST circumstances will hit it HALF of the time. This means it will take 5 jezzails (100 points) three turns of shooting to hit enough times (7.5) to possibly kill it. Of course, then you have to account for the T6, so only half of those will Wound (3.75) and then the 4+ Regeration slices off another half (1.87) equating to a total of 1 or 2 wounds. Assumming, you are entirely innept, and leave your Terrorghiest in the open for three turns, I can make the 6 wounds necessary (5.6, so I need a little luck) if I triple the number of jezzails (15) for 300 points (75 more than you spent). Of course, you won't just sit there and let me shoot you. If the Terrorgheist is really hungry he will fly over and munch them first turn; but why get shot and possibly end up out of position to a really juicy target like that the side of some plague monks, so instead he'll fly to within 8" and Death Shreik. They will all die or run away.

Death Shreik is to Skaven what WLC is to Elves.

Dragons and their ilk are awesome, hence why everyone wants one! Also, I think it is BS that the guys with sniper rifles can't snipe, but I digress.

1) No Terrorgheist will charge you turn one unless you get the first turn,are dumb enough to move forward, and the Terrorgheist rolls stupidly well for charge range. 10+2D6. The first turn Shriek is more feasible, but again, you need to use some sense man. Why are you deploying at the front of your deployment zone when you KNOW a Terrorgheist is coming and you KNOW you can out shoot Vampires (who literally have no shooting). Again, a little common sense.

2) It's undead. This means two things. It crumbles just like any other Undead creature and it can only march within 12" of the general. It only has 4 S5 attacks at weapon skill 3. The Death Shriek, while allowed to be done against a unit you're in combat with, does not count toward combat resolution. The Thunderstomp will help, but it probably isn't winning a fight against large rank up units. However, if you use it as a flanker it will only be moving at 10" per turn (since the 20" fly is a march move now). It's a great monster, but it will take some finesse to use to it's maximum potential.

3) The Terrorgheist has a 6+ regen, so your math fails. Your Jezzails will hit half the time under NORMAL circumstances (long range -1, large target +1). That only changes with terrain and if you're taking the time to duck behind terrain you're likely not taking the most direct path to the enemy. When it gets within 18", which there are good chances it will have to, you hit on a 3+. Assuming you take equal points as a Terrogheist that's 11 Jezzails. 5.5 hit per turn, 2.75 wound, .46 are saved, leaving 2.29 wounds per turn. It has 6, so yeah you'll need 3 turns of shooting to kill the sucker. That brings me to the next thing.

4) Death Shriek gets weaker as the Terrorgheist is wounded. While a Banshee always uses 2D6+2, a Terrorgheist does 2D6+wounds. That makes it much more dangerous at full health, but capable of being mitigated as well. You're likely to get about 2 turns of shooting against the thing, especially if you get the first turn. By the statistics above, that would mean it has 2 wounds left. Death Shriek isn't quite as scary at that point is it?

5) Skaven are perfectly fine with leadership. I don't know if someone has been cheating you, but you get all your normal leadership bonuses against Death Shriek, Ghostly Howl and Casket of Souls. You always have and you probably always will. All ranked up, Clanrats are leadership 8 without the general. That''s the same as my High Elf Spearmen. Add in a Grey Seer or Warlord and you're most likely leadership 10. That means at max health the Terrorgheist will do a maximum of 10 wounds to an unsupported unit of ranked up Clanrats and 8 wounds to one near the general. An average roll of say 7 would do 5 wounds to an unsupported unit and 3 wounds to one near the general. That's perfectly manageable. A panic test is unlikely, so the only thing you have to worry about is terror. You're just as likely to pass that as anyone else.

Terrorgheists are awesome. However, they are rather poor against infantry. Say you roll high enough to do 6 wounds. 6 dead infantry really isn't that great. Now direct that against a monster or a cavalry unit. There is no wounding roll, so you do the exact same damage against a toughness 8 model as you do against toughness 3 models. No armor save makes cavalry cry. 6 wounds is enough to outright kill most monsters. A cavalry unit would be utterly devastated. This is where they excel: monster and cavalry hunting. You don't have cavalry, so the only things you really need to worry about are your war machines and your Hellpit. You WANT it coming straight at your shooting. That makes it easier to hit! Shoot the Terrorgheist for a couple turns and then plow a block of infantry into it. It will probably crumble without your infantry having to even do a wound. If anyone has any room to cry it's Bretonnian players. Remember how I said they're good at hunting Monsters? Well flying ones that are best when AVOIDING combat and ignore their armor save are the notable exception.

Now Dragons are a completely different ball game. Right now you'll see two at the absolutely most (Lord and plus Dragon Mage) and they're extremely overpriced compared to the newer monsters in the last few books. However, when High Elves are capable of bringing a shit ton of them it will be a different story. They'll be reasonably priced and there will be a lot of them. The Breath Weapons are a completely different matter compared to the Death Shriek. Those WILL absolutely maul your units, cause panic tests, and generally cause havoc. Throw in a few Eagles and your shooting priorities will be very difficult to manage.

But that's probably a year away. Enjoy your ridiculous ability to blow up half of a High Elf army in one turn while you still can.

Just a note that you no longer get +1 vs. large targets in 8th edition. That was an old rule.

You tell him Serban. Look whose math fails now! - Burn :)

1. We are a lot closer than we used to be. Scenario 4 has you 18 away, and Scenario 5 has you 12 away. As I thought it worked you march 20, and pretty much everything is in reach of death shriek.

2. Did not know about undead marching, and still not sure I understand 100%. I was really looking for a dragon in general, and one that was not a mount to keep the points similar.

3. I blame Army Builder for the regen. I thought it said 6+ward/4+ regen. Also, even with your bad math, it still would take three turns, so how reasonable is it to say that the Jezzails are monster killers?

4. Point taken.

5. SIN works a little differently. They would add thier rank bonus to the Gen leadership, so it is unlikely to ever be above 7. More likely, it will be 5. However, I was comparing jezzails to dragons. Once we get into general, Grey Seers and Infantry . . . we have left the topic.

On an aside, I can't wait to play you. Also, I had not thought about ranking up the Jezzails,

I thought you were talking about your units in general with leadership, not the Jezzails. The Jezzail would indeed be brutalized by Death Shriek.

What the hell does large target do now? I still think Jezzails are nice, but without the +1 from large target, they're not what I thought they were.

Large target simply means that you get less cover then other things do. But really, since it is all line of sight, the size of the model itself is what decides if it is in cover or not, not the fact that it says large. So yeah, large doesn't do anything anymore ;)

Only thing I could see is if you say bring an old time tiny giant and a new giant giant, I might argue that the tiny giant should still have the same cover as the new giant (cause they are both large), and not be able to hide better as in the spirit of the game he is supposed to be..well..giant.

Fritz, you definitely need to revisit the Large Target rules. Yes, large targets can not take advantage of cover, but the biggy is it increases a general's Inspiring Presence to 18", and the same for a BSB's "hold your ground". I don't know much about undead, but I'm betting that's a biggy, and why every Battle report shows a dragon-mounted-general.

Thank you GW for taking yet another straight forward, easy to understand rule and making it unreconizable and unrememberable. Why are single charecters easier to shoot than a unit of skirmishers again? I'm switching to Warmaster, it can't be this convoluted.

Oh yeah, right, there is that. Very few things fall into that category. My army has nothing that I can mount my generals to become large for example. Then again, a slaughtermaster riding on the back of a giant would be hilarious ;)

But I can certainly see how helpful that would be for a vampire army where larger leadership bubble means better movement.

I love how cannons got easier to hit with and something with a sniper rifle has a harder time hitting... Oh well, this is still considered one of the most entertaining editions of the game. Add to that the very impressive quality and balance of the 8th edition army books, I think I can forgive some of the little things.

I don't have a rulebook over here and I don't intend to. It's an expensive book. I've also played something like 2 games of this edition. It's hard to remember all the rules when you don't use them. Large Target for Undead would do almost nothing. The 12" march radius around the general isn't based of inspiring presence. It's just a hard and fast 12".