Flyers and charging

[MorGrendel]

So Fritz and I have a lively debate going regarding flyers and charging. One of us contends that since flyers begin and end the turn on the ground, line of sight is drawn from the ground; the other contends that the flying base in part of the model, and so line of sight is drawn from the air.

I know this has come up in a few of our games, so I thought I'd see where you all weighed in.

If desired I can provide more description and points to both sides, but I wanted to post the question as unbiasedly as possible.

[Thomas Fitzcharles]

Good Day, All.

I would think line of site would be from the air. If a unit is on the battle field and their army is engaged in a battle. So you know the foe is close by. It is fairly easy to to take off look around see the foe and charge.

Sincerely

Thomas

[Berserker]

A flying unit is only flying when it is moving. Once it stops moving, it is on the ground. It is no longer flying.

The pins that you put the models on are only there to show that the unit is a flyer (and make it looks cooler), but not to help it with line of sight. Otherwise, you can just put a really big pin under your unit and say that you can see everyone. Or if you go with the theory that a flying unit is always flying, then it has unlimited line of sight because it's always in the air as high up as it needs to be to see whatever it needs to see. That is not how the game works.

As such, I would say that line of sight is not helped by the pin.

[boagrius]

I would say that they have LOS but in turn so does everything else back at the flier.

[Titus]

I always draw my line of sight from the ground, or where the model would realistically be able to see, if it was on the ground. I.E. if a pegasus is on the ground, it would have the same line of sight as a horse. You can't put your model on a huge flying pin and then be able to charge everything willy nilly.

[Fritz]

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=39719

Pretty much sums up my thoughts.

[Thomas Fitzcharles]

Good Day, All.

Why can't you put a pegasus cav on a tall flying pin? Is there a specific rule that say I can't. I could have a pegasus in the air at all times to keep the enemy in view at all times. They would not be flying around willy nilly. The pegasus cav are in the middle of a battle they know the emeny is near. They would normally act as scouts. By the second move they would know where every unit on the field is, except maybe another flying unit. Foot and horese cav can't move that far. Even so If a ground unit is in line of sight on my first move and then they move behind a woodlot on their frist move. do I believe they just vanished form the field, no I figure they must have moved behind or into the lot. I know this is a game and there are rules. But unless there is a specific rule that says they can't do it there is no right assumtion. But I really don't care because this is a game.

Sincerely

Thomas

[Berserker]

Their argument on that website falls short in that they ignore the fact that flyers are only flying when they are moving, not when standing still. They land at the end of their movement. Thus, when they are standing still e.g. before the charge (and that is when you draw the line of sight), they are on the ground. They are not on the pin. They are not flying.


Edit: And to answer Thomas's question, yes, you can certainly put a flyer on any size pin you want. No restriction against that. You can put it on a 20 in pin if you want. Hence why GW made the rule to say that when fliers are not moving, they are on the ground, so ensures it stays fair and you don't just have a unit that sees everythign everywhere all the time.

[MorGrendel]

To further summerize Bezerkers point, P 70. states "The flyer starts off on the ground, takes off, flies where it wishes to go, and then lands. Flyers, therefore, begin and end their movement on the ground."

Does this require the player to extrapolate a new eye line? Maybe, but it's pretty cut and dry. Most flyers are small and can't see over the belt of the guy in front of him, so interviening troops block line of sight. All other flyers are huge, (generally) mounted to the ground, and can still see over everything anyway.

[MorGrendel]

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=39719

Nope, no bias there.
"Lands" implys I invented/imposed a word into the rules venacular. I did not; I quoted the first to lines of the flying move rule. I'm not arguing LOS, I'm arguing that flyers are only as tall as the model.

You've added the word "natural" to the LOS rule. This implys that any other point of view is "artifical" and "fake". However, you suppose that you add the height of the base to LOS, wherein I can find no other example where that is done. Do the rules specifically state you DON'T add the height of the base to the model; no, but in general the rules don't tell you what you can't do, but what you CAN do. You can not write a rule for every exception.

It would be very odd if you had to physically change the model (remove the stand) to get it to work.

No more odd than putting a Character down after the mount has been killed, or being able to see though a forest.

+1
So your friend is mistaken

Damn, I can't compete with this logic. He's got me. Now if he only told me where I was mistaken.

If your friend keeps pestering you about it then just ask how your supposed to know where the Eagle's eyes are if not on the stand.

Oh I don't know, pretty sure I can look at the model and see it's shorter than a skaven. Worst case scenario, I guess I could use a tape measure.

Or seeing as TLOS is very confusing at times just go with VLOS (virtual line of sight) instead. Or simply agree at the start what your models can and cannot see over like infantry see over swarms but not over cavalry and bigger and Eagles can see over cavalry but not over monsters etc.

Your one of four posters advocated VLOS. That's not a winning arguement for your side.

I agree with the others, there is nothing in the rules supporting his side of the story. If you think something's unclear, please ask him to refer you the rule.

Have him show you the rule? I believe I did that. Of course, you didn't reference that in your argument.

[Thomas Fitzcharles]

Good Day, All.
So there are rules regarding this. I am cool with it. Note to self never argue with people who have been playing war hammer for 20 years, when you have not gotten thru the rule book once. I still don't understand half the stuff I've read. So when are we going to play again. Chris maybe a Game of thrones and war hammer marathon.

Sincerely

Thomas

[MorGrendel]

Yes, a WH battle for kings landing!

And I appreciate that the new guy who hasen't read the rules sides with the cheeky High Elves. :)

[penseur]

Let me know the next time you guys play. I wouldn't mind watching to learn.

[Fritz]

"Do the rules specifically state you DON'T add the height of the base to the model; no, but in general the rules don't tell you what you can't do, but what you CAN do. "

You're absolutely right. The true line of sight rule tells me I MUST measure line of sight from the eyes and no other point. I CAN NOT measure from any other point. The rules do not say I can remove a model from it's stand and therefore CAN NOT do it.

"However, you suppose that you add the height of the base to LOS, wherein I can find no other example where that is done."

Nor can you provide an example where you take it away.

"I'm not arguing LOS, I'm arguing that flyers are only as tall as the model."

How are we not arguing line of sight? This whole thing is about whether a flying model can see something. A model on the table is a model that is on the ground. If a model has a flying stand, then I'm sorry, but that's part of the model.

If you start adjusting to how a model is positioned for true line of sight you open up a whole new can of worms. The new Empire Gryphon is positioned on a rock, so clearly you shouldn't be able to see it behind that hill because it wouldn't "normally" be that high. The same goes for the High Elf Dragon. Undead Ghouls are hunched over, so they should draw line of sight from a higher position. Those Wardancers are posed in leaping positions so they should be considered lower. That horse is rearing, so the line of sight should be taken from a lower position. Oh you can't shoot that mage on a floaty object because he should be lower and you therefore can't see him.

True line of sight rule states that you measure line of sight from the eyes of the model. Not from where the model "should" be, but from where the model is. If you want to exploit the rules and put an assassin on a spring go for it. That's how the rules are written. Enjoy getting shot at from every point on the battlefield.

[MorGrendel]

I CAN NOT measure from any other point. The rules do not say I can remove a model from it's stand and therefore CAN NOT do it. . . . Nor can you provide an example where you take it away.

So you contend that if I cast Howling Warpgale (may not fly, must use basic move) or use the Storm Banner (no flying movement allowed across the entire battlefield) that you still measure from the air?

How are we not arguing line of sight? ... If a model has a flying stand, then I'm sorry, but that's part of the model.

You have a point. However, I contend the clear tube represents nothing being there, so when the turn is over, we pretend it goes away and the creature lands like the rules state for flyers.

If you start adjusting to how a model is positioned for true line of sight you open up a whole new can of worms. The new Empire Gryphon is positioned on a rock, so clearly you shouldn't be able to see it behind that hill because it wouldn't "normally" be that high. The same goes for the High Elf Dragon. Undead Ghouls are hunched over, so they should draw line of sight from a higher position. Those Wardancers are posed in leaping positions so they should be considered lower. That horse is rearing, so the line of sight should be taken from a lower position. Oh you can't shoot that mage on a floaty object because he should be lower and you therefore can't see him.

Empire Gryphon - Rock is on the ground. Not invisible rod.
High Elf Dragon - Touching the ground. Chalk the cheese that the HE ground is 4 inches off the rest of the ground to more HE shenanigans. They get the best of everything.
Undead Ghouls - Touching the ground - measure from eyes. Really, well-postured zombies? Pa-sha!
Wardancers - I would give them their hieght (begrudgingly); however, my experience is that my opponent lays them/him down because they are "sneaking". I seem to only remember one tall model, so again, should one tall model provide an advantage to an entire unit. Seems a bit unbalanced to me. I'd also concede to give the HE wizard on a magical soap box his half inch, I mean why shouldn't the HE wizard be taller than all other wizards.
Rearing horse - Archeon, of course. That's the model, you expect him to dominate the tablescape. And he's touching the ground. However, for one Empire night in a unit I'd balk if he was less than a 1/4 inch taller than his mates. The same slipper slope applies here. Can't everyone rear up, can't everyone jump. My model is not posed with a pistol in hand, or his lance down, but I can still shoot and charge, why then cant I just rear my horse to gain an extra 1/4 inch. BTW, being on a rearing horse is like sitting on a catapult, you are real busy hanging on for dear life.

True line of sight rule states that you measure line of sight from the eyes of the model. Not from where the model "should" be, but from where the model is. If you want to exploit the rules and put an assassin on a spring go for it. That's how the rules are written. Enjoy getting shot at from every point on the battlefield.

Players don't exploit the rules in friendly games.