Weapon Skill 0 - What happens?

[Berserker]

So I have a unit in my army that can lower the WS by 1 of someone in base contact with it and it also causes fear. That means thatif a unit fails their fear test, then the WS of the guys in BSB contact will have a WS of 0.

We know already that that means that the dudes with WS0 are auto-hit.

What is being debated (heavily on the forums) is if the dude with WS0 is allowed to attack back. The two camps are: yes, but can only hit on 6s, or no, WS0 means they have no skill in weapons and thus can't attack. I'll post below the two opposing views. What do you all think?

Arguments
"Some people argue that units with WS0 are auto-hit, but can still attack and hit by the "always hit on 6s" rule. But the way I read the rules, units with WS0 have no weapon ability at all, which means they have no viable attacks with which to hit. Similar to how a model with BS0 and and a ranged weapon cannot use the weapon at all (A saurus oldblood with a Staff of the Lost Sun for example)."

"That is incorrect, having "no ability to fight" is purely fluff text. And the actual rules simply say that WS0 is automatically hit, it doesn't say they may not attack. The only way they can hit is by using the 6s always hit rule."

"It is a rule, not fluff text. A Saurus Oldblood is BS 0 and, therefore, not allowed to use a ranged weapon. Similarly, a unit with WS 0 is, therefore, not allowed to use a close combat weapon. The rule is printed on page 4. I understand why people think the "always hit on 6's" rule supersedes the above rule (and I understand why I believe the opposite), but you cannot ignore a part of a rule (dismissing it at fluff) just because that part is not 100% clear. In addition to having "no ability whatsoever in that skill", the next paragraph states that blows against units with WS0 automatically hits. This additional clarification was needed to supplement the first paragraph because opposing units trying to hit units with WS0 need to know what is required to hit them. Such a clarification is not needed for any other characteristic because the only other opposing roll that is affected by a target's characteristic is Toughness, and the third paragraph states such an occurrence cannot happen because a T0 target cannot exist (it should already be removed from the game as a casualty).

Which rule takes precedence is the only unclear item.
Characteristics of 0 or Roll to Hit (a natural dice score of 6 always hits)

My opinion is that the former takes precedence and no to hit rolls may be attempted."

[Fritz]

I would say 6s always hit and the WS 0 folks are automatically hit. Argue technicalities all you want, the spirit of the rules trumps all. BS 0 and WS 0 are not comparable because no one in the game starts as WS 0. Everything is intended to have the ability to attempt to hit things in close combat. Not everything is intended to be able to shoot.

That said, I don't think the two abilities stack. Base contact happens first, so you immediately lower their weapon skill by 1. You then take a fear test. If failed, their weapon skill is then reduced all the way down to 1. That's my take anyway. It seems a little broken to be able to take someone to Weapon Skill 0 just from a fear test. Magic spells that reduce weapon skill stop at 1, why should a magic item be any different?

[Berserker]

I tend to lean towards 6s should always hit as well. Of course, how easy would it be for GW to faq that!!! I sometimes think they like to create drama on purpose.

On the 2nd point I disagree. This is not a magic item. This is an inate ability to lower any enemy's WS in base to base contact with them by 1 pip and it is a continuous effect, not a one time effect, nor a magic effect caused by spells. While you are in base to base contact you are continuously at -1WS throughout any phase. So even if you want to say it applies before the fear test, it will also still apply after the fear test. So in your example, the fear test lowers WS to 1, and the unit effect then makes it a 0.

Let me put it another way. Mods are applied cumulatively against your base stat. Fear very specifically says "Your WS is 1." So you're treated at having a 1 on your profile, to which, then, the -1 from Yhetee aura is applied. The Yhetee aura always gives models in BtB -1 WS. So no matter if something lowers your WS to 1 or raises it to 10, you always have -1 to whatever that value is. The mods are applied to whatever the value of your stat is.

This has been the accepted ruling in the community btw.

[Fritz]

I tend to lean towards 6s should always hit as well. Of course, how easy would it be for GW to faq that!!! I sometimes think they like to create drama on purpose.

On the 2nd point I disagree. This is not a magic item. This is an inate ability to lower any enemy's WS in base to base contact with them by 1 pip and it is a continuous effect, not a one time effect, nor a magic effect caused by spells. While you are in base to base contact you are continuously at -1WS throughout any phase. So even if you want to say it applies before the fear test, it will also still apply after the fear test. So in your example, the fear test lowers WS to 1, and the unit effect then makes it a 0.

Let me put it another way. Mods are applied cumulatively against your base stat. Fear very specifically says "Your WS is 1." So you're treated at having a 1 on your profile, to which, then, the -1 from Yhetee aura is applied. The Yhetee aura always gives models in BtB -1 WS. So no matter if something lowers your WS to 1 or raises it to 10, you always have -1 to whatever that value is. The mods are applied to whatever the value of your stat is.

This has been the accepted ruling in the community btw.

Eagles being able to charge over things has been accepted by the community as well. You guys told me no on that.

So out of curiousity, what would be your interpretation on spells that reduce things to WS 1? The lore of shadow base spell (Miasma i think it's called?) can reduce weapon skill down to 1, but no lower. Are you arguing that a -1 WS aura would reduce that down to 0 even though the spell would not normally be allowed to do so?

[Berserker]

Asolutely. If the spell lowers WS to 1 and then the yhetee gets in contact with your unit, then you are now WS0. But of course, I don't have access to lore of shadow, so that will never happen ;)

Incidently, just saw that the French, Italian and German Ogre faqs actually answered this question. For some reason, it never made it into the english faq. Grr, GW, grrr ;)

Q. Les figurines en contact socle à socle avec un yéti ou plus sont-elles réduites à CC 0 si elles ratent leur test de peur? (p45)
R. Oui
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Cus ... -_oct_2012
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As for eagles, what do you mean? You can certainly charge over a unit into a unit behind it if you see them and have the room to land there. Or are you talking about forests and not being able to see through them (as that is a very specific situation where we didn't think forests should allow you line of sight since it's a forest).

[MorGrendel]

It is my general understanding that models either have the ability or don't. If they don't, their Characteristic is 0, and they can never gain the ability. A Characteristic can be reduced, but never below 1, unless a item/spell specifically says so. (Compare Skaven - Wither to Shadow - The Withering)

As Fritz says, no matter how afraid, warriors don't forget how to fight, and this is demonstrated by the fact that the to hit and to wound charts do not account for a 0 Charecteristic. So I guess I'm saying I guess it could happen, but the rule to do would also have to specifically state that WS could go below one and in that case, the model could not attack. What about a negative WS? Does the model hit itself?

Fritz, if you are still, still, still referring to our game, our conversation began over math. My assumption is that your flyer RLOS eyeline is not much higher than that of a Terradon, ~1 3/4 inch from table top. The interviening unit on a bridge is roughly 2 1/2 inch from table top (wore if there is a river under the bridge), and the target charecter is on the ground. I just don't see how the LOS can arch over the unit on the bridge to the shielded character unless we are still playing Fly High rules.

[Fritz]

As Fritz says, no matter how afraid, warriors don't forget how to fight, and this is demonstrated by the fact that the to hit and to wound charts do not account for a 0 Charecteristic. So I guess I'm saying I guess it could happen, but the rule to do would also have to specifically state that WS could go below one and in that case, the model could not attack. What about a negative WS? Does the model hit itself?

That's the catch though. The rulebook does specifically say that a unit can go down to WS 0, in which case they are hit automatically. It fails, however, to say what the heck happens with the unit's own attacks. While the rulebook says that units with any characteristic of 0 can not perform said action, it also says that you always can hit on a 6. It seems to me that since there is no unit in the game that cannot hit something in close combat before modifiers, that we defer to the always hit on 6s rule.

At this point I think I'm conceding to Serban's point of view, even if I think it's broken as hell. The designers had clear intent for WS 0 to exist. They just only gave us half an answer. No matter how hindered, I just can't justify a unit not even attempting a swing.

Fritz, if you are still, still, still referring to our game, our conversation began over math. My assumption is that your flyer RLOS eyeline is not much higher than that of a Terradon, ~1 3/4 inch from table top. The interviening unit on a bridge is roughly 2 1/2 inch from table top (wore if there is a river under the bridge), and the target charecter is on the ground. I just don't see how the LOS can arch over the unit on the bridge to the shielded character unless we are still playing Fly High rules.

You're the one that made it about math. I don't see where you're pulling your numbers to make it seem like a unit of infantry is somehow taller than an eagle. The issue was on where to draw line of sight from. You all have house ruled it that I have to take the Eagle off the flying stand for line of sight. The community has come to a consensus to the contrary. That is all I am saying.

[Berserker]

Yeah, I agree with Fritz. I think a unit should always hit on 6s even if WS is 0. If the warrior freezes in place, he still has the chance the the attacker might slip and fall into his frozen sword point, or maybe that his wild fear-driven swings might actually connect.

As for house rules, I think the only house rule that we have is that forests block line of sight. I don't believe there ever was a rule that you need to take the eagle off of the peg. I only think that you can't assume that the eagle is flying high (otherwise how could you ever charge the eagle in the sky?). The eagle's line of sight should be from the provided peg. That also means tha you can't make a really big peg to abuse that, but that the peg that comes with the unit should be used. I would accept that in any game. But the pegs are not very high, so it could certainly still be conceivable that you can't see a unit behind the other unit if the front unit is large or on top of something and thus blocks line of sight.

When in doubt, roll a dice ;)

[MorGrendel]

I'm would prefer the always hit on 6's as well. Taking the carnage out of WH seems bad on all accounts.

As Serban said, there is no house rule regarding interviening units. That said I believe we both believe that you can't see though a unit as though it is transparent. By this I mean you can't draw line of site through legs or under the arms of cookie cutter models. Yes, you might be able to get your eye in just such a position as to see through the unit, but IMHO soldiers are constantly moving so the chances of that being something you can actually do is impossible. Heck, I miss archers standing just two ranks back in a unit. I might see them, but my brain doesn't comprehend what I'm looking at.

The point of the math was that in this one case I did not think you had LOS because the intervining unit was taller than the target, and since the charger wasent taller than the interviening unit, I didn't think the charger could see over the unit and hence did not have LOS.

As we further discussed it, I did not feel modeling should incure an advantage, and to that point, I felt the "ground" rule supported that point. However, I conceeded that the packaged "glide" is part of the model and that the model is not removed as to represent an average height between takeoff and flying. Many of the Skaven models are modeled up on rock and rats, and to add more interest to my army I have continued this trend. However, I do not think it should confer an advantage, as I believe it is done to help heroes fit in units and draw attention to characters. This is inline with Serban's comment about abuse of a really big peg, or in my case "rock". Another example for me would be my Vermin Lord. Should I use it in a game , we would need to decide where its eyes should be, as I can see it's modeling as being problematic to my opponent. I also think a similar discussion may be relevant when alternative models are used. For instance, if there is a great difference in size between a HE Great Eagle and the Hobbit Great Eagles. My assumption is that most most WH flyers are of a similar size, Terradon, Great Eagles, Dwarf Copter, with similar eyelines. If WH flyers are smaller than Hobbit flyers this may be the reason my "tallness" math appears suspect, but in that scenario I used what I had available.

Hopefully, I've added clarity and not opened a new bag of worms. Sorry to hijack your post Serban.

[boagrius]

It should be a simple matter, look at the to hit chart. What is needed to hit with a weapon skill zero, if its not there than you can't hit them. the chart shows that a 6 always hit's. If an ability reduces you to zero then there is no hit.

Why couldn't a power effectively remove your ability to fight back, maybe it puts you into a coma, turns your brain to mush, or just freezes you in time so that you can't fight back.

However GW should have taken care of this like they did in 40k by saying you can't reduce stats below 1 and that if it would you just auto hit that unit but they are still at 1. Doe's no one at that company actually play the game they right the rules for?

[boagrius]

Also this can be looked at like this does a steam tank have a WS? If charge it can it hit me back? No, wel then theres your anwser.

[Fritz]

Also this can be looked at like this does a steam tank have a WS? If charge it can it hit me back? No, wel then theres your anwser.

Wrong on both counts unfortunately. A Steam Tank is catagorized as a chariot. It therefore uses the Steam Tank Commander's WS 3. The Steam Tank Commander has one attack with which to hit you back in addition to the unique attacks from the tank itself.

[boagrius]

I don't know the rules for the tank sorry. I was trying to equate it to a model with no weapon skill.

[Fritz]

I don't know the rules for the tank sorry. I was trying to equate it to a model with no weapon skill.

That's exactly the point. There is no such model in the whole game.

[MorGrendel]

Yeah, Chris, you made Rachel WS 1 last weekend. Even the mighty hammer couldn't completely remove her weapon skill, albeit she's cross-eyed now.