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Some of you are fairly vocal regarding the Skaven Cannons, I just wanted to update you. I'm on a 3 game win streak, and so far my 5 cannons over 3 games have killed one Ogre, 2 sabertusks, 5 orcs, and a goblin. On one shot against a block of Black Orcs, the shot landed perfectly striking 20 Orcs; however, as it was Strenght 2, it failed to wound any of them. Now, some of that is my die rolling, which I know is anemic, no 6's with 20 dice. But the point is the cannons are not as bad as you think. Heck, with Dan's dice rolling, he managed to kill a cannon with Haunted Mansion, (yeah, that's right Strength 1 vs Toughness 6).

Bah.

Did you have issues with them in the first couple turns? Of that list, you really only should have been shooting at the ogre or the orcs. Unless the goblin and the sabertusks just happened to be in the way of a better target or you just had no other targets, I can't see much reason to shoot a cannon at them. I don't mean to sound critical, but I'm curious what circumstances led to you choosing those targets.

The black orcs may have been a stroke of bad luck, but they're also a prefect example of why the cannon is so horridly underpriced. You only had to kill 8 to earn its points for the game. Had you killed all 20, you would have killed 2.67 times your cost in one blow. That has routinely happened to my units in the past. An Empire cannon has the same amount of randomness, with exception of the strength, can only hit one file worth of troops, and costs 30 more points. It's a relic of 7th edition partials that is certain to change.

Game one was Serban's Sabertusk Army. It was a shooting army that forgot to shoot, not that it mattered, with Vangaurd he was into me on turn 1. Now if my cannon had grape shot... That said, I might have shot his big unit of Ogres, but I don't recall the result, my crazy neighbor came over and I also forgot to shoot with my GRs. I blame him for my DoomRocket missing the Ogres and landing on my DoomFlayer - I have yet to see one of those in action.

In the second game, it was meeting engagement, so again we started super close. I think I misfired turn one, declined to fire turn 2, shot two ogres as they came onto the board edge. Then Serban conceded and we ate tacos.

Against Dan, it was dice mojo. I rolled so many misfires I chucked the dice, and Dan gave me a warning :). Dan only rolls 6's, so luckly when ever he had to roll leadership test he was booking it. I hindsight, the shot that took out the goblin was from the Warpfire Thower, which leaped the intended target, and was then destroyed by a Slave Explosion. I'll assume that I used the cannon in the tower to cut down his main Orc unit, but I don't recall landing anything too severe. I know I targeted the Black Orcs a lot, and simply failed to score any wounds.

I have come to realize though, that if I want to win, I can't ignore both cannons (opponent's perogative) and Pestulance (my perogative).

Nor should you ignore either. It's just how that Skaven book is designed. Your best assets are your very powerful shootingand magic tools. The rest of the book is underwhelming. I can see making a stormvermin heavy list working, but that's about it. The cannons are underpriced, but really only overpowered when combined with endless Ld 10 slave blocks and shooting into combat. You don't really do that. They're particularly powerful against my elves for the same reason a stone thrower or a mortar are: you're shooting at expensive T3 models. That's the giant downside to elves. It's a hard counter that I can't really do anything about.

I'm starting to hate Jason's doom divers more. Those things are crazy accurate and make heavy cavalry a laughing stock.

I hear ya, two direct hits on a HPA. And my Brass Orb scattered farther than my guy can throw it.

One thing. Your expensive T3 models get a ward save! My even more expensive T4, 3 wound models get nothing. A canon will kill both just as easy (especially since cannons cause multi wounds).. Stop complaining about your elves Fritz!! You have a flying bird that poops fire on units without even having to shoot or engage them! =)

On Jeff's game two. You did misfire turn 1, and shot the air and nothing happened. Turn 2 you didn't have anything to shoot at and turn 3 your canon killed 3 out of the 8 ogres in that block of reinforcements (you did Str. 10 hits with d6 wounds) that had just come on the board and made it run off the board. The rest of my army was already destroyed by that point with only my general and a fire belly left alive so then I conceded and we ate tacos =)

Overall I don't find cannons that horrifying. They are good, for sure, but I don't think they are game makers/breakers.

Berserker wrote:The rest of my army was already destroyed by that point with only my general and a fire belly left alive so then I conceded and we ate tacos =)
.

Did the tacos make you a fire belly?

No, but I erupted from somewhere else.

hahahaha

Berserker wrote: One thing. Your expensive T3 models get a ward save! My even more expensive T4, 3 wound models get nothing. A canon will kill both just as easy (especially since cannons cause multi wounds)..

I would love to have a copy of this mythical book in which every single elf gets a ward save as part of their basic abilities. Because the book I have in front of me lists exactly two units, one of which is a character. Just like your ogres, the vast majority of my army gets no saves. Since my army packs 4 models into the same space as an ogre, the number of wounds caused is comparable (4 hits vs 1-6 wounds).

Berserker wrote: Stop complaining about your elves Fritz!! You have a flying bird that poops fire on units without even having to shoot or engage them! =)

I wasn't complaining. Hell, if anything I've moderate my previous statements on WLCs. At least now I can protect one unit from them with my banner of the world dragon. I was pointing out an intended flaw of elves. Elves being high points and fragile isn't a complaint. That's a fairly obvious fact. Also, why are you complaining in the same breath you're yelling at me to stop complaining? Hell, at least pick something worthwhile to complain about, like the banner of the world dragon (which I put in the same 'severely undercosted' category as WLCs) or the Frostheart. For 225 points the flamespyre is downright tame compared to most 8th edition monsters. Jeff is the only one with the right to complain about it because he was on the receiving end of ridiculous dice rolling. I was rolling 5s and 6s 90% of the time in that game. He handled it quite well in the next game when my dice rolling came back down to human levels.

Berserker wrote: On Jeff's game two. You did misfire turn 1, and shot the air and nothing happened. Turn 2 you didn't have anything to shoot at and turn 3 your canon killed 3 out of the 8 ogres in that block of reinforcements (you did Str. 10 hits with d6 wounds) that had just come on the board and made it run off the board. The rest of my army was already destroyed by that point with only my general and a fire belly left alive so then I conceded and we ate tacos =)

So it had poor luck and still made up it's points cost with one shot (3 ogres are 90+ points no?)

Berserker wrote:Overall I don't find cannons that horrifying. They are good, for sure, but I don't think they are game makers/breakers.

Jason and I have both had very different experiences on numerous occasions. Those cannons can very easily cripple units in the first turn and gut an army, especially elves.

I would love to have a copy of this mythical book in which every single elf gets a ward save as part of their basic abilities. Because the book I have in front of me lists exactly two units, one of which is a character. Just like your ogres, the vast majority of my army gets no saves. Since my army packs 4 models into the same space as an ogre, the number of wounds caused is comparable (4 hits vs 1-6 wounds).

Yes, you're right, I didn't mean to imply the entire army gets it. You were talking about your expensive crack unit so I was comparing that with my expensive crack unit. Yours gets a 4+ ward save. You can make it big, you can get multiple of them. And you can get ward saves for any other unit using your magic (the stackable +1 ward save per successful spell). No unit in my army gets a ward save. My point stands true. You have far more protection versus canons than I do.

And remember that canons hurt my guys more than yours simply because I cannot fit as many ogres in one unit as anyone else (cost and size) so killing a couple can force a panic test. In the end, a canon only gets to kill one dude per rank so if the dude is very expensive, then it's more devastating. That's why people hide their monsters from canons.

Elves being high points and fragile isn't a complaint. That's a fairly obvious fact.

This is really why I got into this conversation to begin with and told you to stop complaining. T3 is not a weakness. It is the normal state of most units in warhammer. If T3 is a weakness, then what is normal? T4? I don't agree with that at all. T4 is not normal. It's above normal.

So it had poor luck and still made up it's points cost with one shot (3 ogres are 90+ points no?)

Yeah, that was a nice shot and seeing that the unit ran off the board, you could say that he took out 8 guys. ;) His cannon has a higher potential of damage as it also get a template at the end, but that can end up being a Str. 2 hit as much as a Str. 10 so it's very random, while a regular canon is never random.

Yes, you're right, I didn't mean to imply the entire army gets it. You were talking about your expensive crack unit so I was comparing that with my expensive crack unit. Yours gets a 4+ ward save. You can make it big, you can get multiple of them. And you can get ward saves for any other unit using your magic (the stackable +1 ward save per successful spell). No unit in my army gets a ward save. My point stands true. You have far more protection versus canons than I do.

Which elite infantry are you referring to? Pheonix Guard are a special choice, so drawing a comparison to ironguts or ogres is not quite appropriate. The closest thing would be maneaters, so I'll go off of that assumption. While tough, phoenix guard have the lowest damage potential of my special choices. So yes, they're better at absorbing damage, but that's their purpose. They pay a high premium for that (15 per model) and have a lower damage output.

This is really why I got into this conversation to begin with and told you to stop complaining. T3 is not a weakness. It is the normal state of most units in warhammer. If T3 is a weakness, then what is normal? T4? I don't agree with that at all. T4 is not normal. It's above normal.

T3 combat characters is indeed a unique weakness. T3 infantry with low armor and high points is indeed a weakness because you're packing the survivability of an empire spearman into something worth twice the points. I challenge you to find another rank and file T3 infantry model worth more that 10 points. The elf armies are the only ones. I'm still not sure why you're saying I'm complaining. It's a stated intent of the GW design team. Again, explain to me how I'm complaining. It's been put in writing multiple times by the design team. Every army has a designed weakness and that's the one they went with for elves.

Frankly I'm getting rather irritated with what feel like words being put into my mouth. My first response was that Jeff should not feel the need to not use WLCs, yet I'm being pounced on for pointing out it is undercosted and stating the obvious fact that elves suffer more than most from templates. Despite how undercosted the thing is, it is a big part of how the skaven book is designed to play. The rest of the book is not designed to stand without it's incredible shooting tools. It's simply an old book made for the days of 4+ partials. The abusive parts of the book, which Jeff does not make wide use of, are all things that have not translated well to 8th edition. As good as GW has been with 8th edition books, I can't wait to see what they do with skaven. There is so much potential there, but right now you pretty much have to play skyre.

Jason and I have both had very different experiences on numerous occasions. Those cannons can very easily cripple units in the first turn and gut an army, especially elves.

True, but they also have allowed you to win Blood and Glory before you even took a turn. They are the opiteme of high risk/high reward. The same holds out for the Doomrocket. People remember all the times these two weapons hit, but they forget all the times that they miss, hit with Str 4 or less (which is half of the dice), or blow up friendlies. I've yet to get a Doomflayer into battle, because those poor bastards are magnets for Skaven shooting. :)

The main point of this post was to vent about a third game where the cannons were mediocre and got killed by terrain. Come on, laugh at my pain. I'm our Jervis.

Alright, we'll agree to disagree then. We all have our own skewed interpretation based on our experience of game play through our choice army. In the end, GW did a pretty good balance in the armies with the result that there is no one best army with one best layout and that's all it matters. Makes for fun and diverse games and ensures not one person always wins =)

I look forward to having that game that I've been trying to have with your elves and smell charred ogres and squished elves on the battlefield.

Berserker wrote:Alright, we'll agree to disagree then. We all have our own skewed interpretation based on our experience of game play through our choice army. In the end, GW did a pretty good balance in the armies with the result that there is no one best army with one best layout and that's all it matters. Makes for fun and diverse games and ensures not one person always wins =)

I look forward to having that game that I've been trying to have with your elves and smell charred ogres and squished elves on the battlefield.

Exactly. My only point was that part of that balance was intended strengths and weaknesses. And yes Jeff, you have hilariously bad luck with...well pretty much anything side related.