Tale of Four Gamers

[Fritz]

Here's a question completely out of the blue, mainly for Jason, but anyone with experience playing against his High Elves can chime in. How effective do you find Lothern Sea Guard? I've been toying with the idea of including them in my Chracian themed army. The whole bow/spear combo thing goes well with the theme. However, they're quite pricey. The internets seems to be pretty divided on them. At 13 points, they're 4 points more expensive than Spearmen. For a unit of 30 that means they need to kill 120 points via shooting to offset their extra cost compared to Spearmen. Is it worth it?

[Titus]

No, not at all, there shooting is not long enough, they have bows, not long bows. You get assaulted by turn 3 if you set up at long distance and never ever get their worth from shooting. Awesome models, so it is a shame. I just started playing them as regular spearmen.

[MorGrendel]

My experience in general with shooting is that the enemy is in combat with you no later than second turn, limiting any effectiveness of shooting, as they can't shoot into combat. That said I do fight a lot of ogres. Maybe, they could be used as a flanking force that kills off enemy forces and them plows in to disrupt, but as main line forces, I just don't know if they can make back there points.

Hmm, now as I ponder it, if you could gaurentee 2 rounds of shooting and Stand and Fire, maybe they could pay for themselves. I know they'd do a number on a skaven unit, of course, that's why I have slaves.

[Fritz]

My experience in general with shooting is that the enemy is in combat with you no later than second turn, limiting any effectiveness of shooting, as they can't shoot into combat. That said I do fight a lot of ogres.

Your experience is pretty rare in this edition. Some circles call 8th edition the "gunline" edition because of just how nasty shooting is. Your Warp Lightning Cannons are kind of case in point. Shooting is absolutely devastating this edition. That's part of the reason I'm trying to think of a way to incorporate some kind of shooting. The Repeater Bolt Thrower is pretty crappy now and most opinions are that LSG are not worthwhile, so that leaves Archers.

In case you haven't figured it out, I have bad news for everyone reading: I'm bored and I miss Warhammer, so you get to deal with me posting an army list. Deal with it. Read on if you dare.

Archmage
-Level 4, Lore of Shadow, Annulian Crystal

Mage
-Level 1, High Magic, Sigil of Asuryan

Noble
-BSB, Great Weapon, Armor of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix

40 Spearmen
-Standard, Musician

11 Archers

12 Archers

22 Phoenix Guard
-Standard, Musician, Banner of Sorcery

24 White Lions
-Standard, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame

24 White Lions
-Standard, Musician

2 Eagles

2500 points on the dot.

I'll probably use some of the Wood Elf Archers I have laying around since 1) they're cooler models than the crappy High Elf ones, 2) I wouldn't have to spend more money, and 3) I'm going for a Chracian theme here, which means woodland huntsmen, so Wood Elf tones go fairly well. The Phoenix Guard have been converted ever so slightly to fit with the theme (simply replaced the Phoenix Guard heads with White Lion heads). I have another full unit of Spearmen and a couple Lion Chariots I can throw in there as well. The Lion Chariots pain me not to include. They're such fantastic models, but for 140 points, being only toughness 4, and taking up valuable special points (I swear the ENTIRE High Elf book is made of Special selections) I just can't bring myself to do it. Maybe in next the High Elf book. Of course, if GW goes and makes something ridiculously awesome like White Lion monstrous cavalry (hey, I can dream), I'd probably use those =)

Any way, on to strategy. The Noble is pretty straight forward. Mandatory-ish BSB, big freakin axe, 2+ armor save, 5+ ward. He goes in the Phoenix Guard unit. The mages require a little more explaining. I've given up my hatred of magic. It's so hilariously unpredictable this edition that I've started to appreciate it. Plus, High Elves are supposed to be all about this magic crap, so ignoring magic would go against a major part of the army. This list is meant to absolutely dominate both sides of the magic phase in a way that only High Elves really can. Dwarves may be able to shut you down, and Skaven and Dark Elves might light you up like a Christmas tree, but High Elves are really the only race out there that can do both.

The level 1 mage has five jobs (damned bastard is takin' er jerbs!). First and foremost, stand there and look pretty. Second, be a nice little caddy for the Sigil of Asuryan. Jeff has been on the opposing side of this nasty little item, but for those of you that don't know what it is, I'll explain. It is a dispel scroll with a little twist: the spell you just attempted to cast is destroyed on a 4+. Poof. Gone. Kaput. In an edition where only one caster in an entire army is allowed to know a given spell (except the lore's base spell), this is a pretty damned nasty item. Mr. level 1's third job is to look devilishly handsome after having eaten your ridiculous "I Win" spell (I'm looking at you Dreaded Thirteenth). Fourth, cast Shield of Saphrey on some unit with as few dice as possible to give them a 5+ Ward Save. Shield of Saphrey is the lore's basic spell, so I probably won't even bother rolling for his single spell. Fifth, and finally, should I not have enough dice to do anything meaningful, Mr. level 1 will attempt to cast Drain Magic (gotta love a level 1 mage that comes with 2 spells). This raises the casting value of all spells by 3 until the beginning of my next magic phase. Minor, but annoying nonetheless. As you can tell, the level 1 mage is mainly there to be as annoying to my opponent's magic phase as possible.

While, the Archmage is obviously the primary offensive caster, he also has a little bit of magic defense as well. That little crystal he's caring? Yeah, that steals of your power dice and adds it to my dispel pool. Sorry. Give up on the magic phase yet? No? Damn. Well you can't say I didn't try. Armed with the +D3 power dice from the Banner of Sorcery, the Archmage's one and only job is to debuff the ever living crap out of the opponent's army. I've finally caved to the fact that the Lore of Shadow is hands down the best lore for an aggressive High Elf general. It does everything you could possibly want for a fragile, elite army. Need to kill a war machine? Well since they auto-fail initiative checks, Pit of Shades should do nicely. Is all that strength 3 having a hard time killing something? Say hello to Withering (-D3 toughness) and Mindrazor (Strength=Leadership; yeah that's right, strength 8+ Elves). Need to limit casualties in close combat? Enfeeble Foe it is (-D3 Strength)! The only spell I really don't care for is Pendulum, but that's what the level 0 spell is there for! The only real downside is the casting value of the spells: they aren't cheap.

Now on to the rest of the army. Eagles are awesome awesome things to have around. For only 50 points a pop, they can do so much for such little investment. High Elf players have literally created tacticas concerning ONLY how to use Eagles. The Archers and the White Lions are more or less designed to operate on the flanks without much aid. The Archers keep the fast, light units, such as fast cav, from getting around the edges. Thanks to everything being able to be wounded on a 6, the archers could conceivably target war machines as well should the need arise. The White Lions keep those big scary units from doing the same. The unit with the Banner of Eternal Flame is especially designed to hunt regenerating monsters (FIRE BAD!). The punch units are the giant unit of Spearmen and the Phoenix Guard (with the BSB). Normally, you wouldn't really consider these units punch units. After all, Spearmen are only strength 3 and Phoenix Guard are only strength 4 with their halberds. What they can do, however, is absorb more damage than most other Elf units. This is thanks to the (relative) cheapness of the Spearmen and the 4+ Ward save of the Phoenix Guard. This is where the Archmage comes in. One unit gets Mindrazor (the Phoenix Guard become strength 9!!!), the other gets Withering and/or Enfeeble Foe. If I don't get a spell off in a given turn, these units can stick around for more.

So there you have it, my madness in a nut shell. For all my trash talk and enthusiasm there are some pretty glaring weaknesses. First of all, monsters really hurt, especially flying ones. High Elves just don't have the high strength shooting or super tough units (everything is T3 after all) to be capable of reliably dealing with a flying monster. Second, it is fairly dependent on magic. It's set up to be able to survive a bad winds of magic roll, but you really have to get SOMETHING out of the magic phase every turn or things just won't work. Oh well. this should be fun to play with at the very least. That is until I play Jeff and his two Warp Lightning Cannons. I think I'd actually prefer Skaven get a new army book before High Elves did just so I wouldn't have to deal with those ridiculous things anymore.

Alright, I'm done hijacking this thread. You can sound the all clear. The danger has passed.

[MorGrendel]

When you come back, we will have to create a new thread, Isle of deather or something.

I guess I am atypical. I don't really pack the cannons or magic items. I think they turn a great infantry game into hero hammer, but that's jus my perogitive.

I think it looks like a solid list. I agree about the eagles, I kept telling jason to pack them; so much so i made him "elementals' to use in their place.

The Skaven are on a pretty long losing trend, so mayhaps I need to revert to the cannons.

[Fritz]

This list is really more of a tourney list. For more casual games I would definitely prefer to go less magic heavy, get those Lion Chariots in and/or the other Spear unit. I love infantry, so the more infantry I can pack and can actually get into the combat the better.

[Fritz]

I finally got February's White Dwarf and I'm trying to think of ways to bring back my Vampire Counts without having to invest much in them. I'm pretty set on ditching the whole army of Sylvania theme I had before and going pure Blood Dragons. I already have the Skeletons converted from Men-at-Arms and plenty of Blood Knights to use as regular Vampires. From my rough recollection I have around 90-100 skeletons to pull from, 20 grave guard with shields, 20 with great weapons, a black coach, 20 dire wolves, 10 or so black knights, and some fell bats. I'm digging the whole monsterhammer thing that seems to be happening this edition so I think my additions will be big flying scary shit. I'll flesh this out when I have the actual book in hand, but for now this is roughly what I'm thinking:

Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon pimped out with as much killy stuff as possible

3x Vampires with barded steeds pimped out with as much killy stuff as possible

2x 40 skeletons with Full Command

2x 10 Dire Wolves

20 Grave Guard with Great Weapons (or shields if the models are busted beyond repair which they might be) and Full Command

2x Terrorgheist (I might use the dragon head instead of the bat head IOT stick with the blood dragon theme)

I would honestly prefer another unit of 40 skellies instead of the Grave Guard, but I'm going to stick with what I have, which is just enough to have 2 units of 40 (hopefully). As is stands, all I have to add is the Vampire Lord on the Zombie Dragon and the 2 Terrogheists. I love the models and I love big nasty flying monsters. It's a win-win as far as I'm concerned.

Each infantry unit will obviously have a Vampire in it. The Grave Guard plus a Vampire should kill quite well. The Dire Wolves will be used as flankers and/or screens for the 3 flying monsters. The flying monsters are really the center of the army. The Vampire Lord on a Zombie Dragon is a supreme killing machine. The Terrorgheists are pretty nasty too since they get to do a Banshee Howl in addition to their normal attacks. The whole point of the army is to set up the monsters to be successful wrecking balls.

I foresee two major weaknesses. First, not that many units. With only two real heavy blocks of infantry, breaking steadfast might be rough. Second, magic might be lacking. Yes, there are 4 casters, but I don't think a single one will be above level 1. The Vampire Lord is going to be crunched for points since he'll hit the 625 max (in a 2500 point list) pretty damned easy on top of that Zombie Dragon. That said, I don't want it to be that good at magic. As much as Vampire Counts tend to need magic to be successful, Blood Dragons aren't supposed to be that good at Magic. And damn it, I love my themes as much as a I love giant flying monsters. Maybe I'll just send the monsters after the big nasty casters as fast as possible. No magic for you either!

[Berserker]

Three cheers for big monsters!! =)

[MorGrendel]

Wish I had some flying monsters

That's it, I'm writting rules for the Skaven Zeppliln. On a misfire, it crashes and burns like the Hindeburg; sounds like a Skaven device to me.

[Berserker]

Haha, I like that!

But don't feel bad, I don't have flying monsters either. I just have monsters. We need to get more monsters though. I like monsters. They are fun and monstrous!

[Fritz]

I haven't gotten my book yet, but Army Builder put out a new version with Vampires. Unfortunately it appears to be rather bugged. Either that, or spears are free for skeletons, which would make no sense. With that in mind here is a more complete list, pending any Army Builders errors I haven't noticed.

Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon, 616 points
-Level 2 Wizard
-Heavy Armor, Enchanted Shield, Sword of Might
-Quickblood (always strikes first)
-Dread Knight (+2 Weapon Skill, must issue and accept all challenges)
-Talisman of Preservation (4+ Ward)

2x Vampires, 202 points each
-Level 2 Wizard
-Barded Nightmare, Heavy Armor, Shield
-Dread Knight, Quickblood

2x 39 Skeletons, 264 points each
-Full Command

2x 10 Dire Wolves, 90 points each
-Doom Wolf

20 Grave Guard, 320 points
-Full Command
-Great Weapons
-Banner of Barrows (+1 to hit)

2x Terrorgheists, 225 points each.

That lands me at 2498 points. That actually turned out better than I expected. I didn't think the hero level Vampires would able to straight upgrade to level 2 casters without having to spend any bloodline points. I also didn't expect to be able to get everything I absolutely wanted on the Vampire Lord for under 625. There were obviously something I would have liked to have taken, but I can live without them. What I found astonishing is just how many points you can throw into that Vampire Lord if you really wanted to. With maximized Bloodline power, magic items, and wizard level he could easily cost 780+ points.

For now I'm sticking with Quickblood and Dread Knight on all the Vampires since they are the most Blood Dragon-esque powers available (that dread knight rule used to be THE Blood Dragon bloodline attribute). However, I can see a pretty brutal combo in combining Fear Incarnate (enemy must re-roll successful fear tests) with Aura of Dark Majesty (-1 Leadership for all enemy units within 6"). It would be great for a Von Carstein theme. I'm still nervous about investing 400 points in two guys that are toughness 4 with 2 wounds. However, they were able to get up to a 2+ armor save, and Vampire armies are character dependent by nature.

[Fritz]

Alternative Von Carstein List with the aforementioned Fear Incarnate/Aura of Dark Majesty combo. I'm actually starting to like it more than the Blood Dragon list. 2500 points on the nose.

Vampire Lord
-Level 4, Fencer's Blades, Glittering Scales, Talisman of Endurance, Aura of Dark Majesty, Fear Incarnate, Quickblood

2x Vampires
-Level 1, Heavy Armor, Extra Hand Weapon, Aura of Dark Majesty, Fear Incarnate

3x 34 Skeletons
-Full Command

5 Dire Wolves

20 Grave Guard
-Full Command, Banner of Barrows

6 Vargheists
-Vargoyle

2x Terrorgheists

[MorGrendel]

I miss core. I had so hoped this edition would be massive infantry battles.

[Fritz]

Yeah, it's the minimum core, but there are over 100 skeletons in that list. I'd go with more, but I don't have the money or the patience to paint yet more skeletons. I'd rather invest in my High Elves (where I have no choice to use anything but infantry). I should point out that there are more points invested in core than any other category.

[MorGrendel]

HE = no choice??? You mean the list with effective war machines, big AND little flyers, knights AND Chariots, and superior spellcasters. I'd kill for that variety. Or do you mean you have no choice because you have Greatweapons that always strike first, or magic spears that work of the charge that don't work for others, and so you have to take them.

Much like skaven, if I did an undead army it would be a giantic shambling hoard . . . Deadites from army of darkness to be exact. Actually, as a counter-point that could make for a pretty cool Empire army. Instead of a steam tank you have a steam powered car with a whirling blade on it. And you'd have to model Ash and Eric the Red. Shoot, anyone got a ton of cash to loan me. :)

BTW, Fritz, what do you think of Desert Yellow as a base for undead? Hmmm, actually probably already been done on Khemri armies.