Swedish Comp System

[Berserker]

I don't think I understand what you're trying to say. Are you defending them or speaking against them?

Now for this equation you mentioned: Viability DIVIDED BY Points TIMES 100 = Swede Value
Giant costs 200 points, and 2 swede value, so they think it's viability is 4.
3 Sabertusks cost 63 pts, and their sweede value is 18, so vialibity is 11.34.
1 ogre canon costs 170 pts, sweede value 30, so viability 51 ==> 2md ogre canons cost 170, sweede value 60, viability 102
1 dwarf canon costs 90 pts, sweede value 11, viability 99 ==> 2nd dwarf cannon same so viability is 99 again.

What do these viability numbers even mean? What do you compare them to? What do they tell you? That a dwarf cannon is 24.75 times more effective then a giant? Twice more effective then an ogre cannon, but the 2nd dwarf canon is just as effective as an ogre cannon? This seems quite meaningless..

[Fritz]

But back to the comp system, I am still not liking it simply because it will cause the "you only beat me cause your army was stronger". Even this system seems to be very arbitrary. Some magic items have points, some don't. For some reason if I take beasts magic lore, I actually gain points back, but I simply don't see why the beasts lore suddenly makes my army weaker (there are some real synergies with the beasts lore that I see). Or taking the fortress (which costs 100 points, so it makes whatever lord you take very weak), makes your army a 20 (costs 100 Swedish points) without even starting to look at anything in it. I just don't see how having a tower in your deployment is suddenly going to win you the game.

Beasts is not a very flexible lore. It only has a couple spells that help the army and the rest focus on character buffing. Compare it to the numerous unit buffs of Gut Magic (incredibly well balanced lore) or potency of Death (LOL PURPLE SUN), it really isn't that great. They're not just looking to comp things into the ground, they're looking to encourage things that aren't that great, but might make for more fun in a game.

The Folding Fortress has some abuses associated with it, but I don't really know them because even tournaments that have no other comp ban the Folding Fortress. When the community has that strong of a reaction to something, I tend to just take it on faith. Keep in mind, a wizard could take it and still be pretty much just as effective. My guess would be big deathstars bunkered up with all the army's characters in a guaranteed building. You'd never get the points for it because 1) they are probably pretty tough to begin with, 2) can't outmaneuver them, 3) you only get half the number of combat rounds to kill them since you back off from the tower if they don't break in your turn, 4) any wizard in the tower will always be able to blast you because, as previously mentioned, you have to back off from the tower after the combat in your turn. I'm sure some ass hole showed up to a tournament, put 1875 points of a giant special unit and characters into one tower and just let his core die off while he blasted away with wizards.

I've gotten the "your army is stronger" arguments from Jason and Jeff. The last time I took double Frosthearts against Jason we openly wondered if there was anything he could do about them. According to this comp system, they were absolutely right; my lists were pretty powerful. Army List composition is a huge part of the game. Sometimes I want to take the softer choices to mix things up or have a little fun, but end up getting wiped off the board. Is the metric perfect? Of course not. But the more I look at lists with the comp numbers attached, the more I think they do a pretty good job. I like this comp system because 1) it doesn't straight ban things and 2) it has a large amount of input from people that want to play this way. If anything, this will reduce the "your list was stronger" arguments if we all shoot to be around the same rating.

Found another weird thing. A sabertusk is worth 3 points, while a giant is only worth 2 (even though it's 23 pts vs 200 in game terms). And if I get a 2nd sabertusk, it's 5, and a third is 10. So 3 sabertusks are 18 points -- which is worth more than a tyrant! I do start to wonder how they decide these point values..

Simple, to discourage you from using large amounts of incredibly cheap redirectors. Redirectors win games. It's the same reason Jeff can take a single unit of 60 giant rats for less than 2 units of 6. Cheap redirectors are really good to have.

Or my 1st canon is 30 points, 2nd canon is 60 points. However, a dwarf cannon is only 11 (with additional cannons also 11). It shoots just as hard as a dwarf cannon. So is the fact that my canon has a chariot that makes it worth 3x and 6x more than a regular canon? That's can't be since my scraplauncher which is also the same chariot (and has the same rhinox pulling it, same T, same armor save, is only worth 6 pts). So what explains this?

You're talking about one of the most reviled choices in all of Warhammer. Be happy the Skull Cannon is around so that some of the hate for moving cannons can be spread around. Your cannon is more accurate, tougher, can MOVE AND SHOOT, and has a real nasty grapeshot compared to the base dwarf cannon. It's a nasty piece of work that you can't really kill with normal war machine hunters. With more and more monsters popping up in books, the Ironblaster just keeps getting better and better for a good points price. The Scrap launcher is what? A small template with low strength (seriously I can't remember)? That's not nearly as terrifying. It also competes with the Ironblaster for rare points.

[MorGrendel]

I was just shooting from the hip on that equation. But given your math, I'd say that a Ogre Cannon will beat a Giant 92% of the time, and do it with less points.

Who wants to test this! I've got a scenario, Giant Shooting Gallery!

We could also try HellPit/Phoenix Shooting Gallery! My money is on the Phoenix to make it through, followed by the HPA, and then the giant.

[Fritz]

I was just shooting from the hip on that equation. But given your math, I'd say that a Ogre Cannon will beat a Giant 92% of the time, and do it with less points.

Who wants to test this! I've got a scenario, Giant Shooting Gallery!

We could also try HellPit/Phoenix Shooting Gallery! My money is on the Phoenix to make it through, followed by the HPA, and then the giant.

Ironically, you just listed them from most expensive to least expensive (240 for Frostheart, 235 for HPA, 200 for Giant). That order sounds about right to me. The Frosty and the HPA both have some kind of save, so they stand some chance. The poor Giant usually just gets creamed by cannons.

[Berserker]

Ok, I see your points Fritz. I did actually go ahead and rate all my 2500 pt armies, even though I was arguing here the whole time.

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As for canons, I don't get why you all revile it so much or are so afraid of it.

A dwarf can buy 2 canons for the same price as my 1 canon. I pay a ton of points for a canon (170). They both shoot at the same str10, and I don't do anymore damage than any other canon out there (it's still is only 1 dude per rank). So what i have extra is that i can move and shoot, I can charge, and I get two dice on the bounce (pick the highest) making me more accurate on the bounce. I'm lower T6 vs T7 for other canons, but i have higher armor save. These advantages make me more survivable against the cheap lowly warmachine killers out there, but my canon is not doing anymore damage. But I pay for all of these advantage. It costs double a dwarf canon! Is this why people are so afraid? Because they can't get a 50 pt cheap redirector to kill off my canon in one turn?

You should ask Jeff how many times he destroyed these invulnerable canons. There has been exactly 1 game where I actually was able to get a charge off with my scraplauncher (and I killed a lowly rat spawn), and it still didn't make it till the end of the game (stupid poison).

The main usage, like any canon is to shoot at things and I'm only better at that in the slight accuracy bonus that I get. That's it. If you have 2 canons on one side and 1 on the other, the side with more canons does more damage.

[Fritz]

Dwarf Cannon vs Ironblaster, yes the Ironblaster often loses. Where the Ironblaster wins and wins big is against all those armies out there that have no cannons (you know, the overwhelming majority of them). You can't dodge it with your big monsters because it can move too. You can't kill it with war machine hunters because it's so tough and hits back pretty hard. Those dwarf cannons I can neutralize because I can charge Reavers into them with a reasonable expectation that they can handle 3 wounds at T4 with the dwarfs only dishing out 3 S3 attacks back. I have no such expectation with an Ironblaster, who will wipe the floor with my poor Reavers. For 170 points, it probably should, but it still presents a huge problem for armies without cannons: how the hell do you kill that thing before it causes significant damage? The only things really strong enough to kill it are also likely to be it's first targets.

Dwarfs also aren't the best metric to be using as their book is so old. Empire has nearly identical cannons that are 125 points each. As the newer book, the Empire cannons are more reflective of what a regular cannon should look like. So for 65 points, you're getting move and fire, 2 extra wounds, a point less toughness against shooting, 3 points higher toughness in combat, an armor save, impact hits, and 3 S5 and 3 S4 attacks in combat. That's a pretty damned good deal. In that scenario you're looking at more like a 3:2 ratio, which more manageable, especially when factoring in your move and fire. You have the luxury of hiding your Ironblasters out of line of sight for the first turn, and then pop out of cover to fire. The Empire has no such luxury, so you're guaranteed the opening volley in the artillery war. That's a pretty big advantage.

Don't think this applies to just the Ironblaster. The Skull Cannon of Khorne is just as disgusting if not more so. 135 points for a S5 T5 move and fire cannon/chariot with flaming attacks and the ability to GET WOUNDS BACK IN COMBAT. If the rest of the Daemon book wasn't so...weird...people would be bitching about that monstrosity just as much.

[Berserker]

So basicaly the gripe is the survivability of my canon. But that suvivability is expensive and it takes Rare points. Dwarf and Empire canons are specials. You get twice the points to spend in specials and 3x any special, and haven't touched the rares yet. I can only get max 2 canons since they are rare.

And remember that you can always bump the suvivability of any other canon by buying a cheap unit and placing it near it to guard it.

For example, a 90 point dwarf unit comes with 10 guys, 10 str3 attacks, T4, 4+ armor save, no warmachine hunter can take them out on their own. Heck, a unit of rifleman that shoots stuff every turn would work even better as it shoots stuff far away normally, but then can shoot anything that comes near the canon when it's being threatened and is still a unit of 10 dwarves after the stand and shoot reaction.

If I didn't have all this surivability on my canon, and had to pay 170 points, it would be a crap cannon. I think people are overreacting like they are overreacting over your end of world banner.

PS. You can't use the argument that it's unfair vs armies that don't have cannons, because then I could say that it's unfair to have flying birds that breath fire on units by flying over them vs. armies that don't have anything like that (all of them). Or any number of other things that different armies have that others don't. If every army had everything everyone had, then it would be boring.

[Fritz]

Sorry, I didn't mean that to sounds like it's unfair. Every army has unique advantages and can be difficult to overcome. I was just attempting to highlight why it's so reviled. I honestly don't mind it. If the other army doesn't have any monsters, Ironblasters are kind of a waste. The same could be said of cannons, but they're cheaper. Yeah it can be powerful, but as you said, the Banner of World Dragon is pretty powerful in certain situations as well. What we're talking about, though, is why Ironblasters are weighted so heavily for comp. The Ironblaster is a very powerful tool to bring and two of them are better than the sum of their parts.

I think the main advantage is the mobility more than anything. A move and fire cannon was unheard of outside of an Empire Steam Tank (also universally reviled, but also very expensive) before your book. However, if it were just T3 or 4 like Dwarf and Empire Cannons, then the movement won't be much of an issue. It's the sum of all the parts that make the Ironblaster just so nasty and why it's seen as a bargain even for 170 points. It doesn't have much of a weakness. It's tough, can laser snipe from across the board (cannon rules are dumb, but that's besides the point), and it can hit back pretty hard in combat.

[Berserker]

Ok, I see your point and I agree that mobility is a good advantage. Being able to move away from threats and still shoot in the same round is pretty cool =)

One day I will make a tournament list and go to a tournament and just to piss off everyone there it will have 2 canons, 2 scraplaunchers and as many sniping poison maneaters and leadbelchers as I can fit in it. And a heavens wizard to keep their fire in check ;)

[Berserker]

Ohhh, I made a 0.6 list. How do you like?

2500 Pts - Ogre Kingdoms Roster - Tourney Shooty List (0.6)

Slaughtermaster's Unit of Entrails (1228 pts)
1 Slaughtermaster, 385 pts (Level 4 Upgrade; Lore of Heavens)
- Fencer's Blades (+1 attack, WS 10)
- Glittering Scales (-1 to hit when attacked by enemy dude; light armor)
- Staff of Sorcery (+1 to dispel) -- makes him a lvl 5 for dispell
- Ironcurse Icon (6+ ward to unit vs. artillery)
1 Bruiser (Battle Standard Bearer), 174 pts (Heavy Armour)
- Sword of Striking (+1 to hit)
- Enchanted Shield (+2 armor)
- Dragonbane Gem (2+ ward vs. fire) -- in case something fiery comes along. He can solo charge that.
- The Other Trickster's Shard (enemy rerolls successfull ward saves)
1 Butcher, 194 pts (Level 2 Upgrade; Great Weapon; Lore of the Great Maw)
- One time: Hellheart (roll D6x5. Any enemy wizard in that range rolls on the miscast table. Get 1 dispell dice for each wizard rolls)
10 Ironguts, 475 pts (Gutlord ; Bellower; Standard Bearer)
- Unit Banner - Standard of Discipline (+1 leadership)

Maneaters from Russia with Love (350 pts)
5 Maneaters, 350 pts (Captain; Bellower; Standard Bearer; Light Armour; Brace of Ogre Pistols x5; Poisoned Attacks; Sniper)
- Banner of Eternal Flame - Flaming attacks
(that's 10 poisoned, fiery attacks at str 4, armor piercing, hitting on 6s (or 5s short range) -- and auto-wounding on 6s)

Leadbelchers (430 pts)
5 Leadbelchers, 215 pts
5 Leadbelchers, 215 pts

Ironblasters (340 pts)
1 Ironblaster, 170 pts
1 Ironblaster, 170 pts

Gnoblars(150 pts) <-- to screen my shooty guys and cause dangerous terrain tests for anyone charging
10 Gnoblar, 50 pts (Gnoblar Trappers)
10 Gnoblar, 50 pts (Gnoblar Trappers)
10 Gnoblar, 50 pts (Gnoblar Trappers)

Total Roster Cost: 2498

[MorGrendel]

I also think the whole thing is comped to encourage core and limit rares. It is a bit of a double hit, with all of the rules regarding rares, but as long as it is consistent, I'm cool with it. The double hit I take for two HPAs, pretty much relegates my list to a higher comped list.

Your Cannon fled my Doomwheel, which no one else can do. BTW, can your cannon panic and run off the board?

[Berserker]

No, my canon died from your doomwheel zap blast which did 7 or 9 wounds at str6 (3 wounds with d3 multi wound) negating my armor save. It didn't flee. it just died. And yes, my canons can run off the board and die if it loses combat and still has wounds left. It also does panic like any other unit out there if someone dies next to it.

[Fritz]

No Mournfangs or Runemaw Banner? Pssssh, you're not even trying. =)

[Berserker]

I don't own any mournfangs unfortunately and the rune maw banner is stupid. On a 2+ the caster gets to choose another unit to cast the spell on (but only for targeted spells -- so stuff like crack's call still work on the unit) and more importantly it also prevents MY spells. So my own buffs will also be reflected on a 2+. Bye bye regen. That makes it rather worthless of a banner and uber expensive as I can only get it on a battle standard bearer.

[MorGrendel]

no, my canon died from your doomwheel zap blast which did 7 or 9 wounds at str6 (3 wounds with d3 multi wound) negating my armor save. It didn't flee. it just died. And yes, my canons can run off the board and die if it loses combat and still has wounds left. It also does panic like any other unit out there if someone dies next to it.

By fled, I meant you moved away from my doomwheel that was after you. I enjoy a good chase as much as the next guy, unfortunately for you, you decided to bulldoze my giant rats. Zappy, zap, zap! W x D6 wounds. That might be why I stopped using them, but now I realize I've been overhandicapping myself. It's nice knowing that something in my army can kill. Nothing is worse than fearful Gutter Runners.