Warhammer Romans

[Fritz]

**EDIT** DEATH BY WALL OF TEXT! **EDIT**

You mentioned how gimped your generals are for having low leadership. That may be a valid point in another army, but not yours. You have senior centurions which are leadership 10 (or 9 for the weaker version) and they can confer that leadership to any unit within 6". You can have multiple of them. That is huuuuge! Not only does that make your units high leadership, it also allows you to split up your army and deploy any way you want and still keep that leadership. Stuff like the elephant's leadership roll, or the reform before charge is suddenly not a big deal, especially if you throw in a BSB. Those flanks that most armies have low leadership pieces on, you don't have to. So basically, the weakness of your general is very easily mitigated in your army.

That's intended. Welcome to Romans. With Centurions they have outstanding leadership. Without Centurions they're human. The other side of that is that to do what you're suggesting then you are spending a ton of points in characters. Centurions of all stripes are quite expensive and not all that terrifying in combat. Yes, they're better than other humans by a small margin, but they're still human. In fact, the thing that Jason and I realized is that it's actually not all that attractive to take a Primus Pilus. You can take the hero level version for cheaper and still have Ld 9 bubbles.

The leadership issue isn't meant to really be a weakness. If anything, centurion leadership is supposed to be a strength. The main weaknesses I see are 1) poor cavalry 2) difficulty dealing with monsters 3) lackluster offensive magic. Thus far that's exactly what I saw from the game I played.

Your velites cannot be core. No other army has core scouts. That is a really big advantage. Unlimited scouts. You should never have core scouts. Make them special.

I'd rather keep them in core since they're otherwise a very weak unit, but I see your point. How about only one unit being allowed to be upgraded to scouts? That still gives core scouts, but it's only a single unit.

Minerva's Aegis. Your spells does -1 STR cast on a 6+, bubble on 12+ with an 18" radius and it's signature so you can have it multiple times. That's too powerful and your range is too big. My ogres spell of +1STR is cast on 7+, and bubble 12" radius at 14+.

Good catch. That bubble range is a typo. Definitely should be 12". I modeled it after Pha's Protection, which is -1 to hit. However, I forgot to consider the signature spell implications. I'm fine bumping it to 7+/14+ if you think that's fair for a 12" bubble.

Mercury's swiftness is like the orc spell Hand of Gork. Hand of Gork is cast on 9+ and moves a unit 3D6" (that's a random 3"-18" range). On a 14+ it's 5D6 (that's a random 5"-30" range). Notice the random element in it. Your spell is cast on a 7+, and moves a guaranteed 10". On a 14+, it moves a guaranteed 20". Guaranteed movement is always better then random movement. That is big advantage. And you cast it cheaper then the orc one.

Hand of Gork also allows you to totally re-position the unit with whatever facing, so the comparison is not really valid. What IS a valid comparison is High Magic's Walk Between World. It's pretty much a copy and paste job. Compared to that spell, I got rid of the Ethereal portion, lowered the range by 6", and lowered the casting value by 1.

Neptune's Gail looks good to me. That's basically Iceshard Blizzard. Might actually be a bit too weak since Iceshard also lowers Leadership by 1 and it's a signature spell.

Yep, another copy and paste job. I'm satisfied with it being slightly weaker.

Pluto's Call: the -1T and -1L for 7+ which can bubble 18" for 14+. That's again too cheap to cast and too big of a bubble. Ogre's version only does +1T at 8+, and can bubble 12" for 16+. Need to tone your spell down.

This was totally intentional. It is modeled after Soulblight in Lore of Death which is -1S, and -1T on a 9+ and able to be bubbled to 24" (yes 24) on an 18+. I figured that changing the Strength reduction to Leadership and lowering the range and bubble radius by 6" each was worth 2/4 less casting value. I'm willing to go 8+/16+ if you think that's more reasonable.

Wrath of Mars: I haven't decided if I like this spell or not. It's a high utility spells allowing you to deal with anything ethereal, lowering armor and allowing you to hit anything on a 5+ (or better). That's pretty strong. Stronger then +1STR, because increasing Str might still not be anough to lower the 6+ depending on what you're hitting. But this guarantees that a Str 1 unit will hit on 5+. I don't know if I like this spell, but maybe it's ok.

Copy and paste job from Enchanted Blades of Aiban in Lore of Metal, but without a boosted version.

Jupiter's Lightning: 12+ for a 2D6 Str4 no armor saves. I think for the cost, that's ok. The comparison spell is ogre's missile which does 2D6 Str 2 no armor saves for 8+. The range is 18". Your range is 24". So for an extra 4 points of cast, you get 2 str and increased range. That sounds ok.

I had a hard time getting the casting value right. I'd be willing to go higher if we feel it needs to.

Appolo's Light: 16+ to stop them in their tracks and prevent any shooting. Range 18. I think that's ok as well. The cost is very high, but it has the potential to stop that charge dead in it's tracks and give you the upper hand.

I'm glad I hit the sweet spot there. You need something at the high level for each lore and I wanted something more tactical than blast the crap out of things (which is what I've gone for throughout the lore). Being powerful without really killing things is rather hard.

Spear of Mars: +2WS, +2 Init, +2 Str, Frenzy (+1 Attack), Hatred (reroll misses) for 65 pts. Really really strong.
---> The Ogre blade that just gives +2 Str is 40 points. The sword of frenzy is 20 points. You're combining a ton of abilities that i don't think should even be combined into a badass spear. Give it to a centurion for some uber WS9, Str6, Init 7, 5 rerollable attacks.

I think I had it at 75 points and for some reason pulled down the points cost. I can't remember why. Also keep in mind, the general rule is that as you combine abilities, they get cheaper. Go look at the Armor of Caledor or the Armor of Metoric Iron. They're 2+ and 1+ saves combined with a 6+ ward save. On their own, each ability is pointed in the common magic item list as 60+ points, but both items come in at 50 points.

With all that said, on second look you're absolutely right. I was originally going to fight on this one, but then I came up with an empire Grand Master build as a point of reference. I came up with an Ogre Blade, Holy Relic, and the Other Trickster's Shard for 255 points. That's 4 S6 attacks, a 1+ armor save, a 4+ ward save, and forcing your opponent to re-roll successful ward saves. The Grand Master also comes mounted and is Immune to Psychology and passes that on to any unit of knights he joins). The combination that my brother caught was a Primus Pilus with the Spear of Mars, Helm of Aeneas, and a Scutum. That guys has a 2+ save, 5+ ward, and the benefits of the spear for 256 points. Considering all that the Primus Pilus does, I'd agree that it's just too good in comparison.

I'd like to keep it around 65 points because I actually like that combination of Spear, Helm, and Scutum. The question is what to keep. Hatred should probably stay over Frenzy as I feel it better reflects the temperament of Mars and it's a slightly cheaper ability since it only works in the first round. The Weapon Skill benefit I don't think is all that bad, and the Strength bonus is pretty critical to making the item. How about the +2 Strength, +2 Weapon Skill, and Hatred? That seems about right for 65 points to me.

Jupiter's Blade: +1 Str, 2D6 Str4 automatic hits once per game for 40 points. So basically you paid 20 points for the one time 2D6 Str 4 hits. I can't think of a comparison for that, but i guess that's ok as it's a one time strike. Str 4 maybe is too strong. Maybe it should be Str3. But I don't know. Someone else should chime in.

I had a hard time with this one too. The once use only hits are probably worth 25 or so, but I gave a 5 point discount for the combination of the abilities, which is, again, pretty standard. I could be convinced to go up to 45 points for this item. I want to keep the S4 no armor saves to keep it the same as the spell from the same god.

Armor of vulcan's forge: 70 pts for 1+ Armor save and -1 to hit on the person. That's too much.
----> Armor of silvered Steel gives a 2+ armor for 45 points. Glittering Scales give -1 to hit for 25 points. That's 70 points. But the catch is that no one is able to combine those two together. You can. Combining items and giving them the combined item cost don't make the final item equal just as good. It makes the item better because it has multiple abilities for one item. When outfitting a person, you generally trade off one thing versus another (in this case armor vs how hard it is to hit you). You don't get to have both. That should be a 100 point item simply due to how hard to kill you it makes you. Or remove it all together.

As I've said, the combination of the abilities is usually at a discount. It's also important to keep in mind who is going to take this item. At 70 points it's going to be a Legate or a Primus Pilus. For the Legate, you can't take this and the Consul's Pillar. For the Primus Pilus, are you going to take this, or the Spear/Helm combination we discussed above? I know which combinations I would prefer, so I can hardly see ever taking this item. I will, however, bump it up to 75 points to prevent the combination of this armor with a Talisman of Endurance. Adding a 5+ ward save on top of this is probably too much.

Helm of Aeneas: 35 points for 5+ ward save and +1 armor. That's fine by me.

Yep, pretty standard.

Gorgon Shield: 25 pts for a shield + giving an enemy unit in bases to base Always Strike Last. That's ridiculously overpowered. At most I would give you the guy in base to base with your character ASL (so 3 guys max). Not a unit. That is simply wrong.

Good call. I was trying to make a toned down Vampire Counts Nightshroud and didn't appropriately remember how it was written. That said, I don't find this item to all that attractive. It's only a regular shield, which is going to be worse (armor wise) for the centurions who can take regular Scutums. With only effecting models in base contact I may take it down to 15 or 20. The Nightshoud by contrast is not a shield or armor, so adds +1 armor in addition to those other things, causes ASL, and nullifies any strength modifiers from weapons for 40 points.

Pillar: 55 pts for automatic dispell on a 4+. If failed, 1 wound to user (no saves of any kind). For the cost and the potential damage to the user i think it's ok. It allows you to stuff a magic phase when you run out of dispell dice.

This is the big one. I'm worried about two things. First, is the combination with a regular dispel scroll too good? Second, is the ability to throw out a dispel scroll at any time just too much even with the risk? Against Jason it never got used, so I have no clue where this item stands.

Amulet of Numa: 40 points, nullifies any magic weapons of anyone in base to base contact. Seems ok.

It's an old High Elf magic item with the exact same cost. Nothing too special, but decent utility.

Thanks for the feedback, especially on the magic items. Those were difficult to price while still being fairly unique.

[Fritz]

Updated version uploaded with the changes discussed above. I also decided an across the board Centurion weapon skill drop was in order. Romans are awesome, but having a Primus Pilus have a higher weapon skill than a Grand Master of a Knightly Order just kind of seemed wrong in the long run. Points have remained the same.

[MorGrendel]

So I've started and lost this a few times, and I'm exausted, but I figured if I didn't post soon I'd never get a chance, so here you go. (I did not proofread, so take it for what it is).

***

Reman Comments:

Concept and Fluff:
Solid all around, albeit, one note. I feel it is more Ancients than Fantasy. All Fantasy armies have an Achilles heel, and I don’t really see one here. I know this is what you wanted to create (I read your blog), and it’s created to a tee, but I think the army list needs a stronger flaw.

I don’t want you to change your entire story, but I think you should go deeper into the personality of the individual Remus. Play off the Cain and Able aspect of the story, and in your story, maybe the wrong guy won. We know the story of Rome, so we need a twist. I think the easiest twist might be that Remus had an untapped magical ability. Perhaps this leads Remans to be more accepting of magic, unlike the other races of man.

Or perhaps he and other rulers were mad as larks, drunk on power and leaden wine. They are the antitheses of the other human nobles, like King Louen or Karl Franz. They are debase, but understand the will of the masses and the power of the mob. Perhaps, play up more of the blood sports, the gladiatorial combats, and coliseums that dot the empire.
For your Achilles heel, perhaps the Popularity of noble directly affects the kind of army you can field. For instance, and unpopular, but readily available leader can only recruit chaff and hire mercenaries; while a well-loved, hard-to-come-by leader attracts crack troops. The general you choose directly affects the kind of army you can recruit. A balance is struck between lots of troop or crack troops, thus no Reman army can be Gauls and Praetorian Guards.

Taking to the extreme, perhaps unpopular leaders don’t even receive a sphere of leadership influence. In effect, each unit is its own island.

Additionally, maybe there is a balancing act to be struck between popularity and magic. If the will of the people (I see a chart coming) is against magic, then maybe your LD drops a point for every wizard you field. If magic is extremely unpopular, wizards can not even join units. Perhaps the army has ways of manipulating popularity risks through magic items and other characters. Rome was known for its bureaucracy, so maybe there has to be more middle management. Perhaps a wizard wrangler or Lunesta for casters whose job it is to keep wizards in line. Personally, I feel wizards go to school to be taught the ways of magic. The hybrid heavy armor wearing, shield toting, wizard noble seems a bit much, seems too similar to Chaos. Such characters are a rarity.

More food for thought, I was surprised not to see more regarding East versus West. Matorca might make a good city in the East. Perhaps chasing down Tarquin is how they get there. Also, what if you modified SPQR?

Finally, I think there are some omissions that may provide some flavor to the army. The Circus Maximus: Imagine wonderful and terrible creatures brought from all over the realm to fight and die in a coliseum. I’m sure one or two can be purchased for the trade of war (and another human or two to poke it towards the enemy). Cockatrice or Basilisk anyone? Reman Chariots: Not just for racing anymore. Imagine a chariot pulled by a blinded Ogre gladiator or slave. Speaking of Gladiators, I think a small crack unit (10) of Killing Blow champions (see Sneaky Gits) might be fun.

I don’t know why but Gauls rub me the wrong way.

Army Construction:
I think there needs to be a size restriction on units that can countercharge. I also fear it will be overused. I think this ability should be saved for more crack troops. It also makes me question why would you take Gauls, Numbians, or Lancarii? I don’t think I would.

Overall WS seems high. Saurus warriors and Human Halberdiers are trained for war too, and they are only WS 3. 4 is really special.

Core should be what your army is built around. To me Scouts are not core in this army, blocks of troops are. Perhaps a special character could give a unit of Velites scout. Also, as they are they are too cheap and there needs to be a size restriction.

Tribune seems too cheap. Noble Blood: If your General is not a caster, does that negate the +1 dispel? Could there be something similar for Iron Discipline? For example, if your general is a caster, then all bets are off and Iron Discipline is ignored.

Monster Hunter: Suggest Heroic killing blow instead. If it stays as is, do the shooting hits include magic attacks?

Does Aurelus know all the spells from both lores, or does he pick a lore. Too much if both. Even Slann and HE can’t do that.

Pilum is too much. Suggest: “Range 6”. Due to the weight of the pilum, the bearer waits until the last second to throw the pilum, and as such, the bearer can Stand and Shoot even if that enemy is otherwise too close for a charge reaction. In addition, should the unit score a hit, then the charging force has its armor save reduced by one for the first round of combat. Bearers must be on foot and not carrying any special weapons.

Pluto’s call requires caveat of “to a minimum of (1)”.; unless you intended this to be a spell that could kill. Most spells of that nature have been phased out.

Erreta:
32, double period after reman temple.

[Fritz]

Concept and Fluff:
Solid all around, albeit, one note. I feel it is more Ancients than Fantasy. All Fantasy armies have an Achilles heel, and I don’t really see one here. I know this is what you wanted to create (I read your blog), and it’s created to a tee, but I think the army list needs a stronger flaw.

Only access to a level 4 wizard is a special character. Their signature special rules are dependent on characters and unit champions. Few ways to get consistent high strength attacks. Fairly poor cavalry. High cost on Legionnaires.

I think there are some omissions that may provide some flavor to the army. The Circus Maximus: Imagine wonderful and terrible creatures brought from all over the realm to fight and die in a coliseum. I’m sure one or two can be purchased for the trade of war (and another human or two to poke it towards the enemy). Cockatrice or Basilisk anyone? Reman Chariots: Not just for racing anymore. Imagine a chariot pulled by a blinded Ogre gladiator or slave. Speaking of Gladiators, I think a small crack unit (10) of Killing Blow champions (see Sneaky Gits) might be fun.

I generally hate chariots. They've never been used all that well in any era of warfare yet they're all over the place in fantasy. The Romans had them in the coliseum, but they were never dumb enough to use them in actual battle. That said, a gladiator chariot I think would be a good addition given how the world of Warhammer is. I can also see gladiators working as well. That could even be a mixed unit of humans and Ogres akin to Skink Cohorts. My worry, however, is that it will take away from the central focus of the book, which is the legions. Perhaps Gladiator chariot units (ala Tomb Kings) and gladiator units could be added to the rare section. It would keep them from being more than 25% of the army and add some more flavor and competition to a rare section that is currently lacking in choice.

As for the monsters, were you not just saying how they don't have enough weaknesses? The lack of monsters is kind of one of them. I didn't really want to put the War Elephant in, but I needed some more choices. It seemed like the least bad option as the Romans did use them for a short period. I like the idea of gladiators fighting the exotic monsters of the Warhammer world, but I think that's where they should say: in the arena. It does, however, make for some good fluff for the gladiators themselves.

I don’t know why but Gauls rub me the wrong way.

Gotta give me more than that.

Army Construction:
I think there needs to be a size restriction on units that can countercharge. I also fear it will be overused. I think this ability should be saved for more crack troops. It also makes me question why would you take Gauls, Numbians, or Lancarii? I don’t think I would.

There are three units in the army that get that ability: Legionnaires, Legionary Cavalry, and Evocati. Your comment implies that it's spread wider than that. What's more, it can only be done when Legionnaires or Evocati are charged. You can't counter charge someone going after Legionary Cavalry. The only one I'd consider removing it from is Legionary Cavalry, but then I fear they won't have a use. Gauls are the only unit that can bring S5 attacks beyond the first round of combat. Numidians are the only fast cavalry. Lancarii are the only source of cheap ranks available to the army.

Overall WS seems high. Saurus warriors and Human Halberdiers are trained for war too, and they are only WS 3. 4 is really special.

You over estimate weapon skill. Empire Swordsmen and Chaos Marauders are WS 4 as well. I did, however, already tone down weapon skill on the Centurions. When I still had Hastati and Principes, the difference between trained and seasoned were distinguished by WS. However, the units were too similar and I wasn't going to make the Legionnaires WS 3.

Core should be what your army is built around. To me Scouts are not core in this army, blocks of troops are. Perhaps a special character could give a unit of Velites scout. Also, as they are they are too cheap and there needs to be a size restriction.

Size restrictions don't exist any more. Why does that even matter? What does taking a large unit of them do for you? I can pump them up by a point, but frankly I feel like skinks with poison, aquatic, and cold blooded are equal to scouting Velites. Heck, I think I'd rather have the skinks.

Serban had the same concern about scouts in the Core section. I originally just limited the scouts to 1 unit, but on second though I've decided to just go ahead and move them to special. I'm not sure I like having only 3 core choices, but Legionnaires are supposed to be the meat of the army, so I think it will be ok.

Tribune seems too cheap. Noble Blood: If your General is not a caster, does that negate the +1 dispel? Could there be something similar for Iron Discipline? For example, if your general is a caster, then all bets are off and Iron Discipline is ignored.

Not sure what you're reading. Your general must be someone with Noble Blood. Period. I'm reading the rule I wrote again and I'm not seeing where you're seeing any leeway with that.

I took another look at the tribune and I agree. I jacked up his base cost by 10 points to 95.

Monster Hunter: Suggest Heroic killing blow instead. If it stays as is, do the shooting hits include magic attacks?

Remember, Scipio also is able to upgrade one unit of Velites with that rule. Heroic Killing Blow on the upgrade unit of Velites would be RIDICULOUS. I would say no on magic attacks, but magic attacks generally don't roll to hit anyway. I'll clarify it regardless.

Does Aurelus know all the spells from both lores, or does he pick a lore. Too much if both. Even Slann and HE can’t do that.

He was modeled on Mannfred von Carstein, who knows both Death and Vampires, which on second thought was a bad idea. He'll just be loremaster (lore of the gods) and drop down 30 points.

Pilum is too much. Suggest: “Range 6”. Due to the weight of the pilum, the bearer waits until the last second to throw the pilum, and as such, the bearer can Stand and Shoot even if that enemy is otherwise too close for a charge reaction. In addition, should the unit score a hit, then the charging force has its armor save reduced by one for the first round of combat. Bearers must be on foot and not carrying any special weapons.

Sorry, but i completely disagree. In the fantasy system the stand and shoot does not reflect the effect a pilum had on combat. First, stand and shoot kills don't count toward combat res. The pilum directly effected how the Romans were able to approach the initial surge of combat. Second, by making it a throwing weapon per fantasy rules you can't do anything with it on the charge, which the Romans certainly did.

Pluto’s call requires caveat of “to a minimum of (1)”.; unless you intended this to be a spell that could kill. Most spells of that nature have been phased out.

Done.

[MorGrendel]

I think Velities as core is good, I just don't agree with core scouts. Having played an opponent that made me deploy my entire army, before he put any models on the table has soured me to the idea. If Scout is an upgrade that also makes them a special choice, then I'm fine. As a point of reference, it is a six (6) point difference between Skink Skirmishers and Chemelon Skinks; so 6 points for Scout, +1 BS, -1 to hit with shooting. I think you only charged 1 point for th upgrade, but Scout may be worth a bit more.

The "However" statement reads like a condition, albeit, I was tired last night. Perhaps you need a page of Army Rules, and take that line out of noble blood, and create a overriding rule that states: Army General must have the Noble Blood special rule.

Pilum: It's your book, you wanted feedback. I don't see how a thrown weapon designed to bend up and make shields cumbersome grants a +1 strength.

[Fritz]

And I appreciate it. Sorry if I'm coming off as hostile. I'm dealing with what is increasingly looking like a colic baby on pretty much no sleep. Working on this is providing a good distraction.

You have to keep in mind that it's not just the weapon itself that needs to be reflected, but the effect. That pilum rule is actually a carbon copy from Warhammer Ancients.

Empire has Core Archers and Special choice Huntsmen. The only difference between the two is the scout rule and 1 point. I think where Chameleon Skinks get most of their extra points is the -1 to hit. That's pretty powerful.

I'm plugging away at Gladiators for rare choices. I need an assist from the latest Lizardmen book. I'm throwing in human gladiators with Ogres like the skink cohort, but there are a lot of issues about unit type and how everything is laid out. What are the exact rules for the mixed unit now?

[MorGrendel]

Well, Spawn-Kin is a long rule. It's about everything you'd expect.

Skinks gain fear. Krox Size = Skinks = Ranks. 1 krox for 8 skinks. Krox go in second rank, additional behind them. Front rank cannot have less models than second rank. If so (through attrition) then krox moves to front. In CC, Krox can only be targeted if attacker is in B2B with Krox or a skink in B2B with Krox. Stomps resolved against Skinks, excess is lost. Wounds don't transfer. Missle and impacts randomized 1-4 skink, 5-6 krox. (Now the odd rule) ... However, if a mixed unit of 5 of more models is hit by a bolt thrower, the shot always hits the closest non-character model to the bolt thrower. Resolve hits and causualties as normal.

Oddly, Temple Gaurd have about the same rule, but it does not say "non-character". They are also required to be 5 models wide. Wierd, probably an errata coming.

The only real difference I can see is that it does not state specifically that you need to surround the krox (or slann). So maybe units can be 4 (skinks) or 5 wide (temple gaurd).

Alright, I need to go to bed.

[Titus]

I'm plugging away at Gladiators for rare choices. I need an assist from the latest Lizardmen book. I'm throwing in human gladiators with Ogres like the skink cohort, but there are a lot of issues about unit type and how everything is laid out. What are the exact rules for the mixed unit now?

I remember saying that exact thing to Morg the other day in a text. I should post our conversations about it on here, or at least let you read what we said to each other.

[Fritz]

I read over the texts this weekend. Two things. First, I worry about mythical creatures and other "flavor" options taking away from what should be the central theme of the army: the legions. I'm willing to bend on gladiators simply because I can limit their usefulness and availability by making them rare and/or making them skirmishers. Putting in mythical Roman creatures would be far too powerful in a list you've already criticized as having no weakness, especially since a great many of them were flying creatures. The only thing I can see working is as monstrous mounts for the nobles only and that just feels forced.

Second, and perhaps the bigger issue, is that almost all of the mythical Roman creatures have been co-oped by other fantasy factions and become staples of those factions. Hydras are signature Dark Elf, Pegasi have become a very Bretonnian thing, a Sphynx is a Tomb King creature, etc. There aren't really any creatures left that would work.

So here's what I'm thinking. The more I think about it, the more I like a mixed Ogre/Human Gladiator unit of skirmishers with killing blow. It can be effective at raw killing, but incapable of holding the line by itself since they'll be skirmishers. That should allow it to be a good special choice without out-doing the legionnaires. I'll throw Gladiator Chariots in rare in units of 1-3. Their points and effectiveness will be very similar to Tiranoc Chariots with the added bonuses of killing blow (on the charioteers only) and scythed wheels as befits gladiators. Finally, I think the best I can do for a good high-fantasy unit is animated statues. I'll admit I'm totally stealing this idea from Dan's Roman Tomb King army. I'll plop them in rare and give them a blurb about being the guardians of noble households or something. As animated marble statues, I'm thinking S5 T5 monstrous infantry with a decent armor save and a high price tag that are essentially undead (meaning they have unbreakable and unstable).

[Fritz]

Here's my quick brain storm for the constructs:

Marmorati (it's the latin word for marble with an "-ati" added to the end)
42 points/model

M4 WS4 BS0 S5 T5 W3 I2 A3 Ld8

Monstrous Infantry

Unbreakable
Unstable
Cause Fear
Hand Weapon
Shield
Marble Constructs: 5+ armor save

The pricing is roughly based on Vampire Count Crypt Horrors, which come in at 38 points per model for M6 WS3 BS0 S4 T5 W3 I2 A3 Ld5 with poison and 5+ regen. Does that seem about right?

[MorGrendel]

Hmmm, I guess I had thought the creatures would be chained to keep them in control and to keep them from flying away. They would come with a Monster Tamer or two that would use only their LD to control the unit (no inspired presence). Since the army seems to utilize bubble leadership, the Tamer LD bubble would apply to the monsters too. I thought that the Tamers would release the chains once the charge was declared. Once released the monster(s) would follow the Monster Reaction Table (if outside the bubble which they should be after the initial charge), except they would treat all models but their Tamer(s) as enemies. Kill off the Tamers, and suddenly there is an untamed monster running amok. The chains can neuter the stats and remove flying is you need to balance things (I see a big lead ball in a cart - easy to pull, but impossible to lift).

I've always likeed the Cerberus. Perhaps the Remans could adopt that visage as trademark/mascot. You did not address Bears. Colbert hates you.

[MorGrendel]

I think the key to any good army book is that balance between flavor and weakness. My concern was appearent weakness, something an opposing general can plan to exploit. I don't see that existing in your book, but that is OK. When I've discussed it with others, no appearent stategy comes to mind on how to beat the Remans. Depending on the build, the Reman's can best you in any one phase, but what waits to be seen is if the trade off is that you can only dominate one phase, or if you build for all phases then each phase becomes winnable. Playtesting will mete that out.

As a whole I don't see the army as overpowered (minus core scouts). I think the Lizards are in a similar boat, they have weaknesses, and to nullify them they have to put the points into the different phases. However, doing so typically makes the army weaker at everything. On an aside, for the points, I wish Lizards could take a level 3 wizard, the slann is too expensive and forces you to go magic heavy, especially if you want to take advantage of Confab and Arcane Vassal which you've already payed for. Unfortunately, most list I see are all saurus with just enough dispel power to negate your magic phase, or all skink skirmish clouds (which is why I think skinks lost a point of LD). Both soild, but very one note.

[Fritz]

Hmmm, I guess I had thought the creatures would be chained to keep them in control and to keep them from flying away. They would come with a Monster Tamer or two that would use only their LD to control the unit (no inspired presence). Since the army seems to utilize bubble leadership, the Tamer LD bubble would apply to the monsters too. I thought that the Tamers would release the chains once the charge was declared. Once released the monster(s) would follow the Monster Reaction Table (if outside the bubble which they should be after the initial charge), except they would treat all models but their Tamer(s) as enemies. Kill off the Tamers, and suddenly there is an untamed monster running amok. The chains can neuter the stats and remove flying is you need to balance things (I see a big lead ball in a cart - easy to pull, but impossible to lift).

I've always likeed the Cerberus. Perhaps the Remans could adopt that visage as trademark/mascot. You did not address Bears. Colbert hates you.

Way too complicated there Jeff. You do love to make complicated rules.

I thought about the Cerebus, but it seems a little too daemonic. Plus, they could potentially fill a cavalry gap, something I'm keen to make a weakness.

Finally, where the hell did bears come from? They aren't exactly mythical. Colbert loves me for not even thinking about their inclusion. They are fit only to die horribly in gladiatorial games.

[Fritz]

I think the key to any good army book is that balance between flavor and weakness. My concern was appearent weakness, something an opposing general can plan to exploit. I don't see that existing in your book, but that is OK. When I've discussed it with others, no appearent stategy comes to mind on how to beat the Remans. Depending on the build, the Reman's can best you in any one phase, but what waits to be seen is if the trade off is that you can only dominate one phase, or if you build for all phases then each phase becomes winnable. Playtesting will mete that out.

As a whole I don't see the army as overpowered (minus core scouts). I think the Lizards are in a similar boat, they have weaknesses, and to nullify them they have to put the points into the different phases. However, doing so typically makes the army weaker at everything. On an aside, for the points, I wish Lizards could take a level 3 wizard, the slann is too expensive and forces you to go magic heavy, especially if you want to take advantage of Confab and Arcane Vassal which you've already payed for. Unfortunately, most list I see are all saurus with just enough dispel power to negate your magic phase, or all skink skirmish clouds (which is why I think skinks lost a point of LD). Both soild, but very one note.

I guess what I'm not seeing is how any other army's weakness is that much more glaring. By your metric I feel like you think High Elves can do everything, Ogres can do everything, Empire can do everything, Dark Elves can do everything, Orcs can do everything, and Lizardmen can do everything. Each of those armies can theoretically own any given phase. The weaknesses are there, but they're more subtle than say Dwarfs (super slow), Bretonnians (crap infantry), or Wood Elves (what are they good for again?). I'm working pretty hard to put weaknesses in there, but they're more subtle than a total lack of capability in a given phase.

I'm trying to hammer in the YOU SUCK AT CASTING feel into everyone but Aurelius. Because the only level 4 is a special character, the most attractive magic item for a wizard is also not available along side a level 4 wizard (unless for some reason you want to take Aurelius along side a Legate, which I think would just plain suck anyway). I know you all seem to think magic is not worth the trouble in this edition, but pretty much all of my experiences say otherwise. It's a huge, if random, difference maker. These Romans just aren't as good at it and as such I see that as a fairly significant weakness. The +1 to dispel from Noble Blood is an attempt to stop them from getting absolutely hammered on both sides of the magic phase.

I also see the cavalry options as a significant weakness. They are either expensive and stuck in an increasingly competitive rare slot (Cataphractii) or are pretty lackluster (Legionary Cavalry). Numidians aren't half bad, but they're not that great either. They're really just generic fast cav with a pretty short range.

The infantry look more powerful than they actually are. Their points cost reflects Manipular Formation, just like Empire detachments. You have to use them just right to get their points worth out of them. Yes, if your opponent charges headlong into them without much of a thought, the counter-charges will murder you. However, good generals don't have much of a problem neutralizing it by synchronizing charges. If you look at them individually, they're quite expensive given their actual killing power. Beyond the first round of combat, a unit of Legionnaires is doing 2 ranks of S3 attacks for 9 points per model. Evocati are slightly better with their heavy armor and S4 as befits a special unit, but they're still going to have a tough time grinding it out against high strength opponents. They can hang tough, but they're not going to bring all that many down with them in the long haul.

Of all the factions that actually have shooting, these Romans are pretty much down at the bottom of the barrel. They have a cheap bolt thrower, archers, javelins, and a stone thrower. That is a whole bunch of S3 with a little bit of S6 thrown in there. Ogres (damn you Leadbelchers!), Empire, High Elves, Wood Elves, and Dwarfs can all do it significantly better. That's how it should be. I wanted Roman firepower to be plentiful but fairly weak. I'd consider them to be just above Bretonnians in terms of firepower effectiveness (their Trebuchet is amazing and their archers are dirt cheap, but their options are limited to those two units).

So let's break it down by phase. Movement: the only advantage they have here is really Manipular Formation. It is both powerful and pathetic depending on the situation. If the opposing general can synchronize his charges to occupy all the Legionary units or force the Reman general into charging, then it's just wasted points. If the Reman general can force his opponent into making piecemeal charges, it can be decisive. It is an advantage, but if you look at how Empire armies have evolved of late, it's not that much of one.

Shooting: Yeah...unless you have no shooting, they're not going to beat you in this phase. Even then, a Reman general will almost certainly not win by creating a gunline. The shooting is just not powerful enough to win on its own. It can be a good shaping element, and I think the army will work best when it has some, but that's about it.

Magic: Highly defensive and the spells available are pretty subtle. The best they can hope for is making the magic phase a non-factor for both armies. They certainly aren't going to light you up in their own phase while shutting down their opponent's magic.

Combat: They have the potential to absolutely rock the first round with legionary infantry. Legionnaires, Evocati, and Praetorians are all significantly better in the first round. Beyond that first round, though, they lose a rank of attacks and a point of strength. If you can weather that first round, you can probably grind it out or win outright in the subsequent rounds. They're generally point heavy, so pinning them with cheap steadfast units and then committing heavy hitters to out-maneuvering them seems like a solid tactic to me. The key to beating them is, once again, neutralizing Manipular Formation. Legionary Cavalry suck on their own, but they'll seem awesome if they're hitting your flank at the same time you're dealing with pilum enhanced Legionnaires.

[Fritz]

It's been a while, but here's the latest and greatest:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5iARu ... sp=sharing

I've mostly been working on the background story, which I think is going to be a continuing effort for some time. As Jeff said earlier, I think I need to delve into personalities a bit more. I need to get the general outline first though.

There have been many tweaks and additions since your last read through, so I suggest looking at it with fresh eyes rather than compare what you last saw. Gladiators, Gladiator Chariots, and Gladiator heroes have all made it in. They aren't a mixed unit as was originally postulated. Instead, they're dedicated monster and character killers. I've also added the Marmorati monstrous infantry that I was brainstorming about. Their point cost is far higher than my first spitball number based on looking at other monstrous infantry. Lastly, I added the Naptha Thrower. It's based on Byzantine greek fire dispensers. Seeing as the Dwarfs are just up north, it seemed very un-Roman to not have them take advantage of some reverse engineering.