damn good point

ahrimen · Post by **ahrimen** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:23 am

not attacking anyone just stating facts.

hypo · Post by **hypo** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:31 am

No I just wanted to make it clear so people keep it in mind. I could see it going down hill. I feel that everyone so far has done the samething and stated the facts as best to their ability. Just there were some boarderline statements that I wanted to make clear that if this post turns into a fight it is done. So please if you still feel like debating please do so. :D

Fritz · Post by **Fritz** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:07 am

Bah, I take time out of my insomnia just to give Dan something to attack and he doesn't even bother to acknowledge my hippie rant. You guys suck :P

ahrimen · Post by **ahrimen** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:08 am

ok as for the fredoms we lost in a time of war let compare "W" to a few other presidents...........

under W we can no longer carry a box cutter onto a comercial air craft nor may we have a phone conversation with an alquidia agent in yamen and expect the gov not to listen

abe lincoln arested 8 democrat congressmen and deported them to the confederacy, exiled the gov of ohio to cananda and when an anti war protest brokout in new york he first orderd a battle ship to open fire on the city and then sent in a infantry division in to mop up. hundreds where kiled and thousands arested abe is remembered as an american hero.

woodrow wilson sent troops out in dozens of us citys to arest antiwar protesters. news papers where forced to promote ww1 and thoes that didnot got the hugo chavez treatment this was eventualy defeated in court as a breach of the first amandment but by then the war was almost over. wilson is an american hero

fdr had 10s of thousands of japanese and german americand interned for the duration af ww2 the american nazi party was forcibly disbanded and forbidden to meet or assemble and many where arested on party afiliation alone although they commited no actaul crime.(im fine with that) fdr also ordred the fire bombing of hamburg and drezden killing hundreds of thosands of german civillians (genevea conventions my ass) fdr is an american hero.

gwb has fought a limited war on a limited front with minimal casualtys and minamal loss of civilian life and property. with a mimal loss of person freedom and absolutly no draft or rationing and a minor effect on our buget or economy (7.2 trillion gnp, less than 1 % of that is spent on the war) gwb is an american villian?

Fritz · Post by **Fritz** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:59 am

Dan I think you missed my point. I'm not talking about freedoms we have lost. I define freedoms on more of a personal basis. You are correct, the average American has lost a surprising small amount of actual freedom given the current state of war. If our president was scaling back personal freedoms in order to help the war effort, I would be slightly more understanding. What I am talking about are attacks on the structure and operation of government itself. What does firing federal attorneys for purely political reasons have to do with making our country safer? How does diverting funds away from two cities already shown to be major targets for terrorism make our country safer? How does exposing a CIA agent in an attempt to discredit your political opposition make our country safer?

My worry, is that the war has become a pretext for our president to do whatever he wants and no one is allowed to disagree with him. That is not the American way and it never has been. As you already acknowledged, every single one of those examples you gave was later declared unconstitutional. That is because the actions of those presidents were out of line with the original intent of the founders. Ben Franklin once said: "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" and the majority of the founders shared that opinion. It is a high standard to live up to, but it is what our country stands for. Dissent is healthy for the country. Diversity of opinion is good for democracy. Do I think President Bush is a villain? Hardly. Sure, there are some who are all dramatic, calling him the devil and what not, but I prefer to talk in rational terms. He is a man who is trying to do what he thinks is best. At times he does what is best for himself and his supporters and not what is good for the country. Sometimes he just messes up. He is, after all, human. I have sympathy for what he is going through right now (71% of the country not liking you has got to suck), while at the same time being frustrated with his policies.

By the way, thank you for acknowledging me Dan =)

ahrimen · Post by **ahrimen** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:19 pm

my point is the media paints him as eithe an incompitent bafoon or an out right tyrant and all the other presidents i listed earlier as great heros. perspective and for the left to admit a lack of it. if you think (i know you fritz dont personaly feel this way) that bush is a tyrant thats fine but out of the same breath tell me fdr was great cause thats bs. if bush is a tyrant than so was clinton, fdr, kennedy, wilson, rosevelt, lincoln, and washington. just to name a few. and if bush is incopitent then carter should be put in home for the mentaly retarted and not be allowed to play with spoons. and nancy pelosi shoud have a nurse follow her around and be forced to wear a diaper and a helmet.

Fritz · Post by **Fritz** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:09 pm

ahrimen wrote:if bush is incopitent then carter should be put in home for the mentaly retarted and not be allowed to play with spoons. and nancy pelosi shoud have a nurse follow her around and be forced to wear a diaper and a helmet.

It is too late to do this?

Carter astounds me for his hypocrisy. This is a man who preached that we needed a more humanitarian foreign policy, and yet continued to support the world's largest propagator of torture (the Shah of Iran). Don't even get me started on Pelosi. She can't even understand that Colbert is a joke, and has repeated advised other Democrats not to go on his show.

The "impeach Bush" crowd simply amuses me. First of all, that would mean Cheney would be president. As much as Bush irritates me, I can tolerate another year and a half. Cheney is either a Batman villain (specifically the Penguin) or a Sith Lord. He shot a friend in the face for crying out loud. A friend! What do you think he'll do to people he doesn't like?! Second, if you somehow impeached both Bush and Cheney, we get Pelosi, who for me embodies everything wrong with the Democratic party. My earlier analogy of moldy cheese and rotten apples is coming to mind again...

ahrimen · Post by **ahrimen** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:15 pm

oh yea and libby wasnt found gilty of outing an under cover agent he was found guilty of a prosses crime wich would have never happened had he not bee charged in the first place for outing an agent( wich he didnt due or atleast was not found guilty of doing) did you hear this agents testimony? apparently she was so under cover she didnt even know about. she was seriously a ding bat.

clinton fired all the attorneys no one cared! but clinton is the medias golden child and could probably run naked through the streets of dc covered in pudding and cnn would say it was good for the country.

probably shouldnt have cut the mony from dc and ny but i dont know everthing that on the books for that but i do know still no terrist attacks since 2001 and results are results.

ahrimen · Post by **ahrimen** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:17 pm

i guess you liked the diaper helmet joke heh?

Fritz · Post by **Fritz** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:22 pm

ahrimen wrote:clinton fired all the attorneys no one cared! but clinton is the medias golden child and could probably run naked through the streets of dc covered in pudding and cnn would say it was good for the country.

I'm going to stay consistent and say that was wrong as well. Keep in mind I am younger than you. I was in grade school for all of Clinton's term in office. I was in elementary school when he was first elected. All I remember is my parents being as bitter and disgruntled about choosing the lesser of two evils as they are now. As such didn't know that he had done the exact same thing. Justice needs to be independent from politics, especially when it comes to investigating political corruption.

Fritz · Post by **Fritz** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:23 pm

ahrimen wrote:i guess you liked the diaper helmet joke heh?

Damn right I did! Great joke.

boagrius · Post by **boagrius** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:34 pm

lets face it we have two choice's, it's between a shit sandwich an a giant douce, so like many of you I think I'll choose the cow.

MorGrendel · Post by **MorGrendel** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:07 pm

I vote tater salad!

To most of this all I can say is old habits die hard.
The gov't consisantly cleans house when there is a change in elected parties or party leadership. Fair or not. Competent or not. When you and those around you are a leak away from being the next impeached president, you keep your friends close. You have a legacy to look after. (Much love Andrew Johnson)

Speaking of impeachment:

Nixon's meteoric rise from the unemployment line to the vice presidency in six quick years would never have happened if TV had come along 10 years earlier. He got away with his sleazy "my dog Checkers" speech in 1952 because most voters heard it on the radio or read about it in the headlines of their local, Republican newspapers. When Nixon finally had to face the TV cameras for real in the 1960 presidential campaign debates, he got whipped like a red-headed mule. Even die-hard Republican voters were shocked by his cruel and incompetent persona. Interestingly, most people who heard those debates on the radio thought Nixon had won. But the mushrooming TV audience saw him as a truthless used-car salesman, and they voted accordingly. It was the first time in 14 years that Nixon lost an election.

Oh the power of TV.

In Hunter S. Thompson I trust.

Clan ONeill Guy · Post by **Clan ONeill Guy** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:40 pm

So many posts, where to begin? I think that I'll just abstain. Keep giving them hell Dan. Oh, if you ever run for office, I'm voting for you.

Fritz · Post by **Fritz** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:50 am

I think you meant Andrew Johnson Jeff, not Jackson.