I understand what GW was trying to do in 8th ediiton with winds of magic by making it such that you could go without any mages and still have some decent magic defense (you get the greater D6 of the 2D6 power dice in dispel dice)) and some hope that the opposing general will not roll welll in terms of winds of magic. Also, you can run a single mage in 8th edition and, with a good winds of magic roll, get off a lot of magic. I also understand that GW designers (esp. Matt Ward), think some randomness is "fun" or "interesting" for the game and, to a point, they are probably right, especially for newer players. As the new army books have come out written for 8th edition, they have taken away or reduced the ability of armies to generate a lot of power dice in addition to the winds of magic without a significant points commitment or risk., except with the lore of death. Notice that they also have gone away from the uber spells that both do not allow for any save and either hit and destoy all models in the unit that fail some test or hits and destroys all models touched by the template and fail some test (or destroys the number of models rolled for in the case of dreaded 13th) in the newer army books as compared with the 8th edition common book like purple sun (lore of death vortex spell), dwellers below (lore of life direct damage spell), and pit of shades (lore of shadow direct damage spell).
In 7th edition, the number of power and dispel dice was determinable based on the mix of mages taken but the rules could be abused such that one ended up with mismatches occasionally against some armies in the magic phase (like against some Liardmen, Daemons, dark elf sac dagger and power of darkness , and vampire counts builds). The spells were also generally less powerful but miscasts were less damaging. The ability to take multiple dispel scrolls also helped a bit.
The biggest problems/complaints with 8th edition magic are the lack of scalability for smaller battles and the dislike by more experienced and tournament players of the randomness of the magic phases combines with the semi-autowin spells in certain match-ups making the game less predictable and too often based on luck. We often house rule the scalability issue by having the winds of magic reduced to say 2D3 power dice and the greater D3 dispell dice at or below 1000 point battles and scale up from there to 2D6 at only 2400 to 3000 point battles. [ 2(D3+1) dice for say 1250 to under 2000 point battles for example]. Otherwise, in smaller campaign and warband events and escalation events, armies with cheaper mages can cast a lot of spells and armies with expensive mages can't cast at all given the character points limits (or are at a disadvantage). When playing larger team battles, we have a modified power dice pool and dispel dice pool scaled up to the size of the armies and number of players on each side.
I'd like to see winds of magic rolled per game turn, rather than player turn.
It sucks to have one player get 11 or 12 dice, followed by 3 or 4 for the other player.
If you rolled winds of magic at the start of each game turn, and then had players channel during each magic phase, you're get a more balanced game, while still having magic be unreliable. It would just be equally unreliable.
Mor Grendel
If only I had an enemy bigger than my apathy.
I like randomness. It's one of my favorite aspects of the game. I don't like knowing what will happen.
I know that tournament players like Fritz always think in terms of probabilities and as such don't like randomness as it takes away from what is expected of an army, but for me, it's what makes it fun. That's why I don't have 1 "best" army list that I tweak for the best probable outcome, but a ton of army lists that can be awesome or suck depending on what happens. Makes for a random outcome.
I don't really want the two armies to be equal. I don't think I like knowing that if one side has a good magic phase than the other side is guaranteed to also have just as good of a magic phase. That allows for planning ahead and takes away from the randomness.
In this variant, the players both know what winds of magic will happen prior to the move, and will be able to move make moves differently based on the magic phase. Remember that magic normally happens after movement, so you don't know what magic will befell you till after you move. Now you know what will happen prior to the move.
As an example of planning ahead, If I roll snake eyes for winds of magic, I know magic will be inconsequential that turn so perhaps I will ignore Jeff's wizard that teleported to the side of my army waiting to cast crack's call since I know he won't be able to cast it that turn. If the winds were big, the wizard would suddenly become a huge threat and I would need to either move or try to kill him as a priority.
Though as you described it the idea of WoM varing less dramtically crossed my mind. So both dice are rolled initially, and then only one of the dice is rolled afterward. If I want more magic called to the field I reroll the low die, if I want less I roll the high die: Magic Phase 1 (MP1) 6+3, MP2 reroll 3 and get 4 so 6+4, MP3 I want less because I'm a dwarf so I reroll the 6 and get 4, so 4+4. Creating more of an ebb and flow. But as you say, far less random.
I guess I grind gears because LM spend a lot of points in Arcane Vassal and Confab, but they are pointless because you need a number of wizards for it to be worthwhile, and magic is just too spotty for me. They really weakened the casting ability in LM, and I just can't seem to justify a Slann for the points.
However, maybe that could be balanced with a sliding scale of WoM. More wizards, more points equals more WoM, and vice-versa. I scorched Clayson to death in our small game (too much magic?) and feel cheated (magic starved) in larger games. Magic does not scale well.
I also dislike that all the big template spells taget Initiative. Sure I missed that when I was playing Skaven, but now that I am looking at LM, now I understand why there are all these Initiative buffs in the LM book. Though I can help but feel they are an expensive magic blanket to deal with a glut of like annilation spells.
Mor Grendel
If only I had an enemy bigger than my apathy.
Are you saying that prior to the turn, two dice are rolled and they apply for both players for that turn. But on each player's turn, the player who's magic turn it is gets to re-roll one of the dice? Does that player choose the dice, or does the opponent choose the dice? I see no reason why you would ever want less dice if you're rerolling your own (so always choosing the lesser dice), or more dice if you're rerolling your opponents (so always choosing the higher dice). I think this will either skew magic into a very big or very little phase, depending on how you're trying to implement it. But I don't think it will solve your problem of boom or bust.
I guess I just don't see why magic is broken as you claim it is. It sometimes is great, it sometimes is not. It's random. Again, I don't want it to be predictable. You have the option to skew the magic by adding wizards and power items (at a cost). I find that fair.
PS. My army suffers from low initiative just like yours and I don't get any initiative buffs. I guess that's one drawback to having a monster army. We can chew threw humans like bread in HtH, but we're weak to spells.
I don't think it is broke - I think it does not scale well.
I actually think it is too random for the points. I feel they created the Loremaster rule and signature spells, just to midigate all the randomness.
With the flow above, I was trying to midigate the extreme fluctuations. Every magic phase you keep one die from the previous phase and reroll the other die. Just a thought, might be interesting.
Mor Grendel
If only I had an enemy bigger than my apathy.
Depends on your playstyle. If I'm packing a caddie and rocking a moster list, I'd push the total down. If I was a dwarf, or not very magical to begin with, or I just didn't get the right mix of spells, I'd push the total down. However, Like you say, if I had a level 4 and two 2s, yeah, I'd keep the six. If my opponent was built the same then our magic phases would probably be high. However, my best magic phases have been with two 4s, so maybe I'd go that way to limit your dispel dice or pull out that scroll early. I like thinking that wizards interacting with the Winds of Magic have an effect on it.
You only roll two dice in the first Magic phase; Player 1 rolls 3+4
On the next Magic phase player 2 decides he wants more magic so he rerolls the 3; Player 2 rolls a 5, and adds it to the 4 he kept.
Player 1 decides to keep the 5 and rerolls the 4. Unfortunately, he rolls a 3; Player 1 has a 3 + 5
Player 2 has burned his scroll and decides that his magic is not as good. He decides to try and back the magic down; Player 2 rerolls the 5, WoM are now 1 + 3. (Hopefully, this will limit Player 1 on his turn)
Player 1 rerolls the 1, and gets a 1. WoM are 1 + 3
Player 2 maintains his plan an rerolls the 3, for another 3. WoM are 1 + 3
Player 1 rerolls the 1, and gets a 4. WoM are 3 + 4
Player 2 rerolls the 4, and gets a 6 (whoops). WoM are 3 + 6
Hopefully, that makes more sense. I think it adds a tactical element to the Magic phase, but they are dice after all.
Mor Grendel
If only I had an enemy bigger than my apathy.
You hate on my simple ward save idea and then bring in this complicated shenanigans? I hate you Jeff.
I'm mostly on Serban's side on this one. I like that magic is horribly inconsistent in this edition. Unlike previous editions, where you had to bring tons of wizards to get any kind of dispel potential, in this edition you can get away with minimal wizards and still stand a chance. The flip side is that magic can be very very powerful. Despite your attitude Jeff, the larger concensus for this edition is that magic is TOO powerful and you're insane for not taking a level 4. Many of Jason and I's games have come down to one of the super spells going off and changing the game in an instant. However, I have also had plenty of games where the winds are just not with one or both of us and magic is pretty quiet. Here's the thing, if you take away that inconsistency you make a very powerful tool even more powerful. The inconsistency is the counter balance to the supped up spells of doom.
The original SIMPLE idea you posted, namely the winds of magic being rolled for the entire turn and not per player turn, would be worth considering. Serban hit all the negatives to it, but I can also see the fairness in it.
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad."
Wait, I never posted a simple idea, he misunderstood. :)
And, you forget my black cloud, by making YOU roll for MY magic, I can only increase my chances of casting. :)
I was not suggesting a house rule, but rather an alternate way to try. If no one is interested, no worries.
I think I am subconcoiusly racing to figure out some reason to take a Slann. Don't forget, he has to be in the center of the unit, and he touches 16 troops. That's 13 more than your HE Level 4. So when he miscasts, the results are game changing. I don't really see me using my special abilites or Lore Attribute, so it's a lot of wasted points in one oversized package. I really wish I had a higher level skink priest (like the Remans). :) Though, I always preferred Monster-rich Southlands armies.
Mor Grendel
If only I had an enemy bigger than my apathy.
